Hi all
I am need of your help. I have set up a project which will provide services for Muslim children in care, foster carers and professionals who have duty of care towards them. We have designed a guide how to care Muslim children who are being fostered by those who do not share the same faith as them, this guide has been endorsed by British Association for Adoption and Fostering. I would like to launch this guide and I was wondering if anyone could advise on the best way to do this. I was thinking of a conference style launch party, however would like to know what topics/issues people would be interest in?
I have thought of the following:
Islam and Foster care
British Muslim Identity
A Muslim carer leaver's experience in caring for by a non Muslim
A non Muslim foster carers experience in caring for a Muslim child/young person
Any suggestions are welcomed
Thank you very much
More needed in there about it from the child/young person's perspective, e.g. what it's like being Muslim and in care; growing up Muslim - strengths (e.g. the support provided by faith and community for example) and challenges (e.g. conflicting influences on identity such as 'traditional' values versus 'modern' lifestyles); the importance of community/cultural identity etc...but the best source for all this and more ideas would be Muslim kids in care themselves, of course. Could you consult with them?
This article from a couple of years ago may be of interest http://www.communitycare.co.uk/Articles/2008/07/02/108681/a-culturally-specific-foster-care-placement-service.htm
It deals with the experiences of one agency in precisely tis area. It always reminds me of the subtleties of cultural differences such as around food or pets.
http://www.islington.gov.uk/directories/page.aspx?dir=LTCDP&dir_name=LTCDP&docid=0901336c803cea22
http://www.axcess-it.co.uk/MFS/homepage.html
http://london.londinium.com/53620
Thank you all for your ideas. I really appreciate them
The event is aimed at foster carers who care for Muslim children or who may and they do not share their faith identity. There are not many Muslim foster carers available for Muslim children to be placed with them. It is also an event to raise awareness of the support available to foster carers who care of Muslim children who do not necessary know about the child/young person's faith.
Also we work with foster care link to raise awareness of fostering in the Muslim Community.
I wanted ideas about topics that would be an interest to non Muslim foster carers, social workers, service managers and others that have a duty of care towards children in care.
I think it would be a great idea to have a young person who has left care and their experiences but that is going to difficult for me. Any ideas?
Speak to the Leaving Care team / service in your area
I suggest to teach them with your own religion because you are now responsible for them.
joycefell: I suggest to teach them with your own religion because you are now responsible for them.
Joyce, when a child is being looked after by a local authority, it is a foster carer's responsibility to promote that child's culture and religion. This means that a Christian foster carer looking after a Muslim child would have to promote their Muslim faith (e.g. by providing appropriate food, or physically taking the child to mosque even if they don't attend prayers). Same goes if the situation was reversed. You can't change a child in care's religion.
I agree with what Jellybean 1 has said in response to Joycefell. You cannot teach in your own religion to a child from a different religion. The basis for this mainly lies in common sense.
Joycefell's view shows a complete lack of respect for a child's religion. Furthermore given that the foster carer is in a position of power this approach is nothing short of oppressive. It also borders on religious discrimination.
Good grief joycefell!!! What else?
Would you enrol them in the young conservatives because you are a conservative.
I think that SW is over focussed on some resience promoting factors like attachment whilst turnig a blind eye to other things like the importance of belief. Both are demonstrated protective factors yet the one has a whole industry devoted to it whilst the opther is often ignored.
I am an agnostic by the way having no particular axe to grind.
R
I think Joycefell's views demonstrate inexperience and that they are not a social worker . (I hope)
Here's another slant on this.
Whilst I disagree with arbitrarily forcing the religion of foster carers on an impressionalbe child I suggest that it is equally dodgy to force the religion of any adult upon a child merely because they share a few genes with them. I'd be far happier with this thread if the title was about the foster care of 'children of Muslim parents' rather than the care of 'Muslim children'. Presumably a child who still needs foster care isn't old enough to have made any meaningful decisions about religion.
Cheers,
Stuart
Visit my blog at http://stuartsorensen.wordpress.com/
Stuart, I get where you are coming from and agree that it is right to be child centred.
However, the Local Authority has a moral and legal obligation to respect the wishes and views of the child's parent(s), unless to do so can be proven as detrimental to the child (within the threshold of significant harm).
And, yes, some children do feel strongly about their religion and identify with their parents religion.
redana: Stuart, I get where you are coming from and agree that it is right to be child centred. However, the Local Authority has a moral and legal obligation to respect the wishes and views of the child's parent(s), unless to do so can be proven as detrimental to the child (within the threshold of significant harm). And, yes, some children do feel strongly about their religion and identify with their parents religion.
I understand that Redana,
That's why I talked about feeling 'uncomfortable' with rather than 'objecting to'. The law is as it is.
However I do believe that it is possible to describe children as 'of Muslim parents' without doing a disservice to parental mythologies be they Muslim, Christian, JW, Mormon, Hindu or whatever. To borrow an illustration from earlier in the thread you wouldn't call a child a conservative or a socialist - simply their parents. Why should it be any different with religion?
Self correction...
I didn't talk about being 'uncomfortable with' but rather about what I'd be 'happier with' but I think the emphasis remains the same.
Stuart Sorensen: redana: Stuart, I get where you are coming from and agree that it is right to be child centred. However, the Local Authority has a moral and legal obligation to respect the wishes and views of the child's parent(s), unless to do so can be proven as detrimental to the child (within the threshold of significant harm). And, yes, some children do feel strongly about their religion and identify with their parents religion. I understand that Redana, That's why I talked about feeling 'uncomfortable' with rather than 'objecting to'. The law is as it is. However I do believe that it is possible to describe children as 'of Muslim parents' without doing a disservice to parental mythologies be they Muslim, Christian, JW, Mormon, Hindu or whatever. To borrow an illustration from earlier in the thread you wouldn't call a child a conservative or a socialist - simply their parents. Why should it be any different with religion? Cheers, Stuart
Because politics is politics and religion is religion. It's not the same. Religion may affect medical care, dress, worship, daily practices, diet etc in a significant daily way. It's also normality for the child and much as I agree with the concept of not forcing children into religion- it is not helpful to the child to suddenly impose very different messages/practices.
Stuart Sorensen: However I do believe that it is possible to describe children as 'of Muslim parents' without doing a disservice to parental mythologies be they Muslim, Christian, JW, Mormon, Hindu or whatever. To borrow an illustration from earlier in the thread you wouldn't call a child a conservative or a socialist - simply their parents. Why should it be any different with religion?
Because by doing so you are denying an important part of that child's identity, culture, and home community. I don't know your religion but I do know that it's difficult for people who feel that their religion is mostly independent of their culture and background to understand people for whom the opposite is the case. Or in other words, do you also think it's wrong for parents to force their own culture, food, and family traditions onto a child? Because religion is not independent of those things.
The other side to this is that for children to be removed from their parents and forcibly converted to the foster parents' religion is a very very loaded issue indeed.
But mostly it's grossly disrespectful to the child's identity and culture. And as republican says, we know that affiliation to a faith community can help with resilience -- I'd suggest that being pushed and pulled around between different religions isn't as likely to do this as being encouraged to maintain their birth culture and religion.
copperbird: [ by doing so you are denying an important part of that child's identity, culture, and home community. I don't know your religion but I do know that it's difficult for people who feel that their religion is mostly independent of their culture and background to understand people for whom the opposite is the case. Or in other words, do you also think it's wrong for parents to force their own culture, food, and family traditions onto a child? Because religion is not independent of those things. The other side to this is that for children to be removed from their parents and forcibly converted to the foster parents' religion is a very very loaded issue indeed. But mostly it's grossly disrespectful to the child's identity and culture. And as republican says, we know that affiliation to a faith community can help with resilience -- I'd suggest that being pushed and pulled around between different religions isn't as likely to do this as being encouraged to maintain their birth culture and religion.
[ by doing so you are denying an important part of that child's identity, culture, and home community. I don't know your religion but I do know that it's difficult for people who feel that their religion is mostly independent of their culture and background to understand people for whom the opposite is the case. Or in other words, do you also think it's wrong for parents to force their own culture, food, and family traditions onto a child? Because religion is not independent of those things.
I never advocated dismissing the child's culture but neither do i believe that an unwilling child should be forced to follow their parents religion merely because they share a few genes with them. If the kid sees himself as Muslim then fair enough. but is it nopt also their right to be a child of Muslim parents and not necessarily a Muslim themselves.
I fully understand the link between religion and culture. I was a fundamentalist christian for many years before I saw the light and became an atheist. To my great loss I wasted a very significant part of my life trying to live an impossible lie. My sister is an ordained priest and my mother was a lay preacher until she retired.
To answer your wider question - yes I think that forcing traditions on to children is abusive - especially when those traditions involve the trappings of religion with attendant abuses such as genital mutilation etc etc.
My own kids are free to follow whatever belief they choose to. But they also understand how to sort truth from fantasy and to weigh the claims made by others against the evidence they see before them. If they chose to follow a religion I wouldn't try to prevent that but neither would I allow anyone to assume that they have a religious identity before they are old enough to decide for themselves.
I think that is the great problem with religion. Children are forced into them and the state winks at this indoctrination - even when the child is removed from their natural parents. For example my christening was conducted when I was a few months old and my 'confirmation' at the age of 12 when I had no clue about any perspective other than Christianity. That's indoctrination and coercion masquerading as 'choice'.
I am not a christian but i am/was the child of christian parents - parents who have no right to decide my religion any more than the parents of looked after Muslim kids have the right to dictate their offsprings' religions.
Respect the kids wishes by all means but surely that doesn't extend to following the parents wishes where they conflict with those of the child, does it?
cheers,
All religions are mumbo jumbo, in my opinion and, if by saying that, I invoke the wrath of a Mufti then so be it.
They are usually created by men to control women, with little righteous add ons for the state.
Can't help smiling when I see sporting opponents making silly signs in an effort to invoke the super beings to support them. Trouble is the loser doesn't then lose their blind faith. They will always come up with some theory to refute their god is crap.
If you believe in one, then in my opinion, you have a low intellectual ceiling.
Shock horror, cast me aside.
Whilst I am not religious, I respect other peoples right to be. If it helps them (or even if they just think it does) what's wrong with that?
Bronagm's above link talks about the practical difficulties and misunderstandings for some children in terms of their foster placements. I'm fairly sure the 14 yr old mentioned would say that these were his own views (even if he's been 'brainwashed' by his parents). Why shouldn't he be placed with a family that understand him?
Shirack be quiet please.
Sun-E: Shirack be quiet please.
Sun-E; I think your response is a bit OTT.
Religion is often used to oppress, whether that is based on gender or something else. Being poor is 'God's Will' is a good one.
Whilst I do respect people's right to a religion, I do find it difficult to surpress a smile when people have told me that "God told them" to do something.
I'm expressing my view Redana, freedom of speech mate.
redana: Whilst I am not religious, I respect other peoples right to be. If it helps them (or even if they just think it does) what's wrong with that? Bronagm's above link talks about the practical difficulties and misunderstandings for some children in terms of their foster placements. I'm fairly sure the 14 yr old mentioned would say that these were his own views (even if he's been 'brainwashed' by his parents). Why shouldn't he be placed with a family that understand him?
If it's the YP's own choice fair enough. But here's a couple of questions....
Would SWs support circumcision of a baby because their parents' religion called for it?
If so would it make a difference whether the operation involved the removal of the boy's foreskin or of the girl's clitoris? I realise that only one of these 'little operations' is legal in UK but in my view both are equally abusive (state-sanctioned or not).
Would SWs support taking an unwilling child to church, mosque, synagogue or whatever if their parents' religion called for it?
If a child of Muslim parents wanted to eat bacon sandwiches would you prevent them from doing so because of their parents' religion?
Would you interpret article 9 ECHR (the right to freedom of religious expression) as meaning that children should be forced to adopt the religious traditions of their biological parents against their will?
I'm not trying to be deliberately argumentative here. I'm genuinely curious to know whether the rights and wishes of the YP to make choices and to avoid permanent, non-consenting mutilation during infancy take precedence over the religion of their parents.
Ah; the first poor soul to out themselves. Would have thought YOU would have wanted to keep it quiet.
Stuart Sorensen: redana: Whilst I am not religious, I respect other peoples right to be. If it helps them (or even if they just think it does) what's wrong with that? Bronagm's above link talks about the practical difficulties and misunderstandings for some children in terms of their foster placements. I'm fairly sure the 14 yr old mentioned would say that these were his own views (even if he's been 'brainwashed' by his parents). Why shouldn't he be placed with a family that understand him? If it's the YP's own choice fair enough. But here's a couple of questions.... Would SWs support circumcision of a baby because their parents' religion called for it? If so would it make a difference whether the operation involved the removal of the boy's foreskin or of the girl's clitoris? I realise that only one of these 'little operations' is legal in UK but in my view both are equally abusive (state-sanctioned or not). Would SWs support taking an unwilling child to church, mosque, synagogue or whatever if their parents' religion called for it? If a child of Muslim parents wanted to eat bacon sandwiches would you prevent them from doing so because of their parents' religion? Would you interpret article 9 ECHR (the right to freedom of religious expression) as meaning that children should be forced to adopt the religious traditions of their biological parents against their will? I'm not trying to be deliberately argumentative here. I'm genuinely curious to know whether the rights and wishes of the YP to make choices and to avoid permanent, non-consenting mutilation during infancy take precedence over the religion of their parents. Cheers, Stuart
Logic.
I wonder if Bright Sparkle would be able to answer these questions (above). Does your guide cover conflicts like this or does it just assume that following Muslim tradition is appropriate even if the child objects or is too young to make a choice?
Stuart; God spoke to me today and HE asked me to say this.
No, seriously....
Would a SW support the circumcision of a baby in foster care?
Depends if the SW has a Care Order (and therefore the right to a say) ; they may not. SW must consider the risks/rights of all concerned. Age and understanding of the baby suggest this is not the baby's choice- so I see it unlikely a sw would support this as any op carries risks and this is not a decison the baby has taken and has lifelong implications.
But sw's do not make these decsions in contested proceedings, Courts do. If there's no Care Order, the sw does not have any choice- it's the same as with any other parent making choices about their child.
FGM- pointless asking as no sw would put that to a Court.
I would personally never expect foster carers to force a child to church, mosque etc against child's will- that is abusive.
If child wants bacon sandwich, l would support their right to have it- (as child is clearly not choosing that religion)
An example from my own practice was that a parent identified their children belonged to a certain religion. The children were clueless and bemused. They had never practised that religion, never been to church and didn't want to go.
Parent specified a certain diet for them, children rejected that and chose to eat what foster carers were eating. Had a Court order, so was able to enforce the rights of the upper primary school aged children.
Turned into a long, drawn out argument- but God loves a tryer and was on our side.
redana: Stuart; God spoke to me today and HE asked me to say this. No, seriously.... Would a SW support the circumcision of a baby in foster care? Depends if the SW has a Care Order (and therefore the right to a say) ; they may not. SW must consider the risks/rights of all concerned. Age and understanding of the baby suggest this is not the baby's choice- so I see it unlikely a sw would support this as any op carries risks and this is not a decison the baby has taken and has lifelong implications. But sw's do not make these decsions in contested proceedings, Courts do. If there's no Care Order, the sw does not have any choice- it's the same as with any other parent making choices about their child. FGM- pointless asking as no sw would put that to a Court. I would personally never expect foster carers to force a child to church, mosque etc against child's will- that is abusive. If child wants bacon sandwich, l would support their right to have it- (as child is clearly not choosing that religion) An example from my own practice was that a parent identified their children belonged to a certain religion. The children were clueless and bemused. They had never practised that religion, never been to church and didn't want to go. Parent specified a certain diet for them, children rejected that and chose to eat what foster carers were eating. Had a Court order, so was able to enforce the rights of the upper primary school aged children. Turned into a long, drawn out argument- but God loves a tryer and was on our side.
Thankyou Redana,
That all sounded far more reasonable than I'd feared.
So in so far as the law allows SW to express an opinion the idea really would be 'child of Muslim parents' with legal right to make choices and be free from abuse (and not automatically 'Muslim children').
I think that denying a child the right to be a muslim child (or a christian child, or a jewish child, or any other religion) is not something that should ever be done on the basis of 'oooo religion is baaaaaad'. It's an important cultural statement, as islam is a lifestyle as well as a belief system and one in which children do play a key part. Denying a muslim child the opportunity to take part in that lifestyle as a child isn't something that any choice made later on can just retread. You can make the choice as an adult that the religion and the religious life is not for you, but you can never make the choice later to engage in a community as a muslim child. And that is something, a different set of experiences, that can place a barrier between a child and the rest of their birth community later.
Also, Shirack: I'm Jewish and have 1.5 MScs and one PhD. If there is one thing I do NOT have, it's a low intellectual ceiling.
Stuart, it's about the age and understanding of the child and the gravity of what is being proposed.
Parents have a right to specify a religion for their child and matching should reflect this- bearing in mind the wishes/views/age/understanding of the child.
copperbird: I think that denying a child the right to be a muslim child (or a christian child, or a jewish child, or any other religion) is not something that should ever be done on the basis of 'oooo religion is baaaaaad'. It's an important cultural statement, as islam is a lifestyle as well as a belief system and one in which children do play a key part. Denying a muslim child the opportunity to take part in that lifestyle as a child isn't something that any choice made later on can just retread. You can make the choice as an adult that the religion and the religious life is not for you, but you can never make the choice later to engage in a community as a muslim child. And that is something, a different set of experiences, that can place a barrier between a child and the rest of their birth community later. Also, Shirack: I'm Jewish and have two MScs and one PhD. If there is one thing I do NOT have, it's a low intellectual ceiling.
Also, Shirack: I'm Jewish and have two MScs and one PhD. If there is one thing I do NOT have, it's a low intellectual ceiling.
I don't think anyone advocates denying the right to be a Muslim child etc. I'm certainly not. I am however advocating for the right of an unwilling YP to avoid being coerced into a religion because their parents believe it. I also strongly oppose the permanent non-therapeutic mutilation of infants.
You're right that you cannot magically relive a religious childhood as an adult. Neither though can you regrow a foreskin.
Neither choice is reversible although I'd argue that the choice to integrate into a religion might be an easier step to take as an adult than the choice to leave it.
Culturally consistent 'matching' gets no argument from me. But how the child's choices are supported within that culturally appropriate situation might.
For example if a child of Muslim parents was placed with a Muslim family and that child didn't want to attend the Mosque or take part in prayers would the 'culturally appropriate' foster family be entitled to force that upon them?
copperbird: I think that denying a child the right to be a muslim child (or a christian child, or a jewish child, or any other religion) is not something that should ever be done on the basis of 'oooo religion is baaaaaad'. It's an important cultural statement, as islam is a lifestyle as well as a belief system and one in which children do play a key part. Denying a muslim child the opportunity to take part in that lifestyle as a child isn't something that any choice made later on can just retread. You can make the choice as an adult that the religion and the religious life is not for you, but you can never make the choice later to engage in a community as a muslim child. And that is something, a different set of experiences, that can place a barrier between a child and the rest of their birth community later. Also, Shirack: I'm Jewish and have 1.5 MScs and one PhD. If there is one thing I do NOT have, it's a low intellectual ceiling.
In my opinion, in the example I gave, the parent was lying. The children had no idea of these religious practices/beliefs. I think it would be obvious if a child was familiar with a muslim religion-get to know the child.
Rowan Williams is an intelligent man so is Desmond Tutu and the Archbishop of York, I have great respect for them but my views apply to them also. I am not talking about education.
I didn't say that I was observant. As an adult, I opted out and married out, but it wasn't due to not being able to intellectually square it. I see nothing wrong with respecting the culture of your ancestors/ family and choosing to live within it - given boundaries defined by local law - and I'd fight for the right of service users to do that too.
copperbird: I didn't say that I was observant. As an adult, I opted out and married out, but it wasn't due to not being able to intellectually square it. I see nothing wrong with respecting the culture of your ancestors/ family and choosing to live within it - given boundaries defined by local law - and I'd fight for the right of service users to do that too.
Does that not mean following 'someone else's rules'?
I know that the 'boundaries' of the religion of my parents constitutes a moral compass that points backwards to the Iron Age. I think that is true for all the Abrahamic religions, including Islam. Yes, it's a bit of a cliche but it is true never the less.
It's the choice that is important. I argue that indoctrination from childhood is not a genuine choice and that the extent to which the state winks at this indoctrination is the extent to which the state is supporting abuse.
All children are required to follow someone else's rules. It's one of the ways we transmit our cultural, moral and ethical values.
The only difference is that you feel yours are superior.
copperbird: All children are required to follow someone else's rules. It's one of the ways we transmit our cultural, moral and ethical values. The only difference is that you feel yours are superior.
Interesting direction to take this thread in. To personalise it in this way seems a little desperate to me.A typically theist tactic in my experience but not really worthy of further comment.
But to pick up on your point about 'difference'...
I think that beliefs based upon evidence are indeed more likely to result in appropriate 'rules' than those based upon the myths of ancient peoples from different parts of the world and different politico-social imperatives. I would also argue that teaching children how to decide upon their own moral and ethical stance rather than blindly to accept the teachings of dead (and therefore unassailable) prophets is more likely to equip them to make good decisions throughout their lives.
None of this changes the fact that I'm not objecting at all to people making their own considered choice to follow religion. I continue to express concern about children coerced and indoctrinated into belief systems that are likely to include ridiculous notions such as creationism and the futile 'happy forever' promises of a mythical, iron age God of war.