Yesterday Shadow Chancellor George Osborne announced plans to freeze public sector pay if the Conservatives win the next general election. This would mean a one-year pay freeze in 2011 for local authority social workers earning more than £18,000. Osborne says this will help to protect public sector jobs. But is it fair to ask council staff to pay for debts caused by the banking crisis? How much of an impact would a pay freeze have on social workers?
I was expecting a pay freeze but then, I'm earning much more than £18,000. I think it stinks to freeze pay for those earning below the national average wage and it will impact in particular, those who work in higher cost areas of the country.
I am less annoyed about the pay freeze than about the huge differences in pay between NHS Social Workers and Local Authority Social Workers, particularly as I have invested time and money to get to a more specialist level. I would not accept that their job is more difficult if anybody tries to go down that route, as I do Court, Adoption, Child Protection etc. Have a look:
http://www.unison.org.uk/acrobat/B4738.pdf
If the difference was addressed as the NJC payslaces matched to NHS I would not bother about a one year pay freeze.
Kirsty McGregor: Yesterday Shadow Chancellor George Osborne announced plans to freeze public sector pay if the Conservatives win the next general election. This would mean a one-year pay freeze in 2011 for local authority social workers earning more than £18,000. Osborne says this will help to protect public sector jobs. But is it fair to ask council staff to pay for debts caused by the banking crisis? How much of an impact would a pay freeze have on social workers?
tbh i will just be happy to be in a job in the upcoming climate, a pay freeze was to be expected.
to start complaining about who is paid more or less is a tad insensitive.
Social workers in the public sector should not be exempt from any pay freeze.
However, my understanding is that social workers would still be entitled to their annual incremental pay rise - as per contract - it's just their overall salary that would remain the same.
The bigger question is whether a pay freeze is actually needed or if Mr. Osborne is just electioneering and trying to look tough.
Let's ask a leading economist.
Grinch:However, my understanding is that social workers would still be entitled to their annual incremental pay rise - as per contract - it's just their overall salary that would remain the same
This.
The majority of Social Workers may well end up in a far better situation than most.
To suggest a pay freeze is acceptable is totally outrageous. Social workers are vastly underpayed and undervalued for the work they undertake. I gave up a well payed job to come into social work as helping those in need was something I felt strongly about. I knew when entering the profession that social workers were not payed very much, but to freeze that pay smacks of insulting, you cant expect to retain good quality staff when you are offering peanuts as a reward for your efforts, all that will happen will be an even greater exodus to agency work than is already evident within the statutory arena. Why get paid 22 - 30k for a job that you could get paid 30 - 50k for without being tied to an authority. Stupid idea tbh.
Avis la Fin
Hi RP
If it makes you feel any better, I don't know where unison are getting their figures from.
In the NHS trust I work for, most social workers are agenda for change grade 6, which in london is 22,328 to 30,247. There is no upward banding unless you progress to team manager
The local authority I work for pays 30,309 (new qualified) to 34, 532 or up to 38,961as senior practitioner. Plus our starting annual leave is 29 days whereas NHS is 27.
Needless to say we are not standing in line for the NHS jobs. Maybe it is different outside london?
it would make more sense to freeze politicians/mps pay ,i earn £30.000 per year and am just about keeping my head above water financially and have not had a holiday abroad for over two years because i can't afford it, furthermore i beleive that I deserve to earn more for what i do, i have been working in child protection for 12 years and beleive me no amount of money could be enough but i do it because i am committed to the children and families i work with. wouldn't it make more sense to freeze the pay of high earners like doctors, consultants, bankers and MPs it's about time they realise that they are there to serve us so why do they need the limos and big houses? you can only live in one house at a time and only drive one car at a time. they would do better to share out the country's wealth equally rather than taking from the poor to give to the rich.
titchmagoo, you are way wrong about that. Because some people are losing their jobs does not mean other people who work hard for their money should not have some kind of wage increase. Inflation may be standing at 0.5% but that doesnt seem to have stopped councils projecting 4% council tax increases for next year. Likewise hearing about the bankers being back to business as usual on the bonus front is a slap in the face to those people who are losing their jobs. Dont make out that workers at the lower end of the system should be grateful for whatever they get, when the inequality is so plain to see. Or should we go back to those days of doffing our caps to our superiors??
As a local authoirty worker I feel that we should not be subjected to a pay freeze. I understand that the current economic climate is having a huge impact, none more so than on the children and families that we work with, making our jobs even more demanding. We work incredibly hard for little financial gain, without being made subject to a pay freeze. I have already taken on a 2nd job to supplement my income and regularly work 6 days a week, sometimes 7.
all public servants are undervalued and underpaid, all have to deal with difficult and anxiety provoking situations. give a pay rise to s/w's and you have to give to the cops, firemen etc. etc.
people need to get real, this is a worldwide recession. we are lucky to be in a job.
Well, speaking as someone who is passionate about fighting inequality, I would agree, give those people a pay rise. You're right.
The other bit is rubbish though; how's about we hold to account the people who CAUSED this world-wide recession, it didnt happen by itself. The politicians, bankers and businessmen who DID cause it dont seem to be doing too badly for themselves, now do they; how much are the bankers paying themselves in bonuses this autumn?? And how much are the likes of Tony Blair earning did we hear?? Repeating the headlines from the Daily Mail does not constitute an argument as to why firemen, nurses and social workers should be forced to pay for the guilty ones mistakes, im afraid. Try thinking a little wider.
Deek: Well, speaking as someone who is passionate about fighting inequality, I would agree, give those people a pay rise. You're right. The other bit is rubbish though; how's about we hold to account the people who CAUSED this world-wide recession, it didnt happen by itself. The politicians, bankers and businessmen who DID cause it dont seem to be doing too badly for themselves, now do they; how much are the bankers paying themselves in bonuses this autumn?? And how much are the likes of Tony Blair earning did we hear?? Repeating the headlines from the Daily Mail does not constitute an argument as to why firemen, nurses and social workers should be forced to pay for the guilty ones mistakes, im afraid. Try thinking a little wider.
don't vote for those you think are guilty.
close your bank accounts.
write to your mp.
again, i'm just happy to be ina secure and well paid job.
"again, i'm just happy to be ina secure and well paid job."
How very selfless...
Thank you for the constructive suggestions: ever noticed that whoever you vote for, the Government still gets in?
Deek: "again, i'm just happy to be ina secure and well paid job." How very selfless... Thank you for the constructive suggestions: ever noticed that whoever you vote for, the Government still gets in?
aye, thats why i vote
challenging inequality?
this is not challenging inequality, it sounds like a left wing, anti-capitailist rant.
"left wing, anti-capitailist rant"
Bring it on! High time someone was ranting against the unfettered excesses of Big Business, supported by their lackies in Government!
Council workers are paid through other people's taxes, so there will always be pressure to keep the public expenses down, particularly in times of recession or high unemployment. The trouble is that the impression that is created is that the public sector does not produce anything. We are treated by some newspapers like leeches or parasytes, without taking into account that we are providing services just like any private business - what's the difference for instance between collecting rubbish and cutting somebody's hair? they are both services, but the consequences of choosing not to cut your hair are not the same with rubblish lying around our streets. We are providing services which the society does not want to be left down to the individual choice whether to pay for or not - not a lot of people would choose to pay for Child Protection for instance. Not a lot of people would afford to pay for private health. Nobody could affor to pay for their own Police service or firefighter service. We are here because the society needs this service - however out of all public services, we are the most despised and easiest to target because of the stereotypes associated with our job. It's not the pay freeze as such that frustrates me, it is the payscale itself. To the colleagues that said they are earning £30000 - in my Local Authority only Senior Social Workers can reach that point or about 4 years after a Social Worker completes PQ2. Without PQ Social workers get stuck at much lower spinal points regardless of how much experience they have. Don't get me wrong, I feel Social Workers have a duty to further their knowledge and be responsible for their professional development, but when we achieve that and start comparing with equally qualified people in other areas of the public sector who may not hold such a high level of responsibility, the money starts to look very very low.
Yep, thats exactly what it is. I mean, far be it for me to criticise, but right wing/ centre capitalism as practised over my lifetime has not exactly been a thrilling success has it?? Social mobility has DECREASED since the 1920's, the gap between the rich and poor has widened, we face massive unemployment, right wing nationalism has risen as a force in British politics- and I should consider that an acceptable state of affairs that isnt worth 'ranting' about?? And when I vote, which credible alternative do I vote for as opposed to the indistinguishable Tory/ Labour double whammy??
If you really think that the last century has been a glorious success for the majority of people, then I hope the sand where you bury your head is always warm for you. But if you ever take the trouble to actually analyse your views, maybe consider a view that wasnt presented on a plate by the Daily Mail, then you might have to re-evaluate somewhat.
Oooops, as a member of the working class (and just because they have told you that class no longer exists does not mean it has, nor that it isnt a perfectly valid way at looking at social relationships), I really ought to know my place; I should shut up and be glad I have a job.... Yeah, right.
surfer: "left wing, anti-capitailist rant" Bring it on! High time someone was ranting against the unfettered excesses of Big Business, supported by their lackies in Government!
oh dear lord, we got a live one.....
working class, leeches, right wing nationalism.yadda.yadda.yadda.
i'm just glad i'm in a job, not being made u/e and i'm happy to take a pay freeze considering the circumstances.
if you don't centre right politics, which the vast majority of the do, go and live in cuba or vote for the bampots like sheridan.
funnily enough suntanned tommy may pick up about 6 votes in tonights election. nah, 6 is overconfident, maybe 2.
titchmagoo: working class, leeches, right wing nationalism.yadda.yadda.yadda. i'm just glad i'm in a job, not being made u/e and i'm happy to take a pay freeze considering the circumstances. if you don't centre right politics, which the vast majority of the do, go and live in cuba or vote for the bampots like sheridan. funnily enough suntanned tommy may pick up about 6 votes in tonights election. nah, 6 is overconfident, maybe 2.
Very articulate. The future of social work is safe with you. Now could you try it again in English??
titchmagoo: all public servants are undervalued and underpaid, all have to deal with difficult and anxiety provoking situations. give a pay rise to s/w's and you have to give to the cops, firemen etc. etc.
Not all public servants are in "anxiety provoking situations" Whatever "anxiety provoking situations" may mean in "PLAIN" English
Deek: titchmagoo: working class, leeches, right wing nationalism.yadda.yadda.yadda. i'm just glad i'm in a job, not being made u/e and i'm happy to take a pay freeze considering the circumstances. if you don't centre right politics, which the vast majority of the do, go and live in cuba or vote for the bampots like sheridan. funnily enough suntanned tommy may pick up about 6 votes in tonights election. nah, 6 is overconfident, maybe 2. Very articulate. The future of social work is safe with you. Now could you try it again in English??
in summary, people were ranting, being selfish and ignoring current financial restraints. then, i was mocking the leftie political parties who were standing in a by-election last night. so out of touch are the lefties that even the bnp got more votes last night. and you are just patroninsing.
Smokey: titchmagoo: all public servants are undervalued and underpaid, all have to deal with difficult and anxiety provoking situations. give a pay rise to s/w's and you have to give to the cops, firemen etc. etc. Not all public servants are in "anxiety provoking situations" Whatever "anxiety provoking situations" may mean in "PLAIN" English
an anxiety provoking situation is where you are faced with, perhaps, an aggressive client in their home, family memebrs demanding you DO something NOW. a difficult situation which makes you feel anxious, stomach churning, increased heart rate,palpitations, fight ot flight.text book stuff.
everyday is a school day smokey.
Its hard not to be patronising about your views, frankly. Anyone who finds the BNP getting more votes than ANY party, Monster Raving Loonies or anyone, such a source of glee in the way that you evidently do is really beyond taking seriously. I didnt realise, reading some of the comments posted here, that social work forums were such a hotbed of conservatism (Conservatism even...). Sad, really. But if the status quo works for you, screw everyone else, eh?
Luckily, the wind is blowing your way, as I gather Westminster is due to get a massive influx of privately-educated careerist politicians after the next election. Who will no doubt continue the same societal travectory that you seem to find so admirable. None of which will benefit any of the groups of clients that social workers come into contact with. I do wonder how people with views like yours reconcile it with your professional role, actually.
Deek: Its hard not to be patronising about your views, frankly. Anyone who finds the BNP getting more votes than ANY party, Monster Raving Loonies or anyone, such a source of glee in the way that you evidently do is really beyond taking seriously. I didnt realise, reading some of the comments posted here, that social work forums were such a hotbed of conservatism (Conservatism even...). Sad, really. But if the status quo works for you, screw everyone else, eh? Luckily, the wind is blowing your way, as I gather Westminster is due to get a massive influx of privately-educated careerist politicians after the next election. Who will no doubt continue the same societal travectory that you seem to find so admirable. None of which will benefit any of the groups of clients that social workers come into contact with. I do wonder how people with views like yours reconcile it with your professional role, actually.
aw man, get over yourself.
and i would be horrifed if the bnp got more votes than one of the 4 major parties.
it is amusing that a group of right wing loonies are now getting more votes than a froup of left wing loonies. but their combined votes are tiny, further proof that the great british public wholly reject left and right wing extremism.so, as we say here, jog on wee man,
You dont watch the news do you. They dont currently get more votes than the major 4 parties, but they do have MPs. So they have a say in the politics of this country. Its great you find that amusing, but then again, racist violence IS really funny, you are right (Sarcasm, in case you missed it). Because dont for a second think that the BNP arent linked to the people who DO carry out racist attacks.Or homophobic ones; theres been a lot of homophobic murders make the news recently too.
Whereas im struggling to think of many examples of left-wing loony violence in recent British society. But do enlighten me, something 'amusing' would be nice.
Deek: You dont watch the news do you. They dont currently get more votes than the major 4 parties, but they do have MPs. So they have a say in the politics of this country. Its great you find that amusing, but then again, racist violence IS really funny, you are right (Sarcasm, in case you missed it). Because dont for a second think that the BNP arent linked to the people who DO carry out racist attacks.Or homophobic ones; theres been a lot of homophobic murders make the news recently too. Whereas im struggling to think of many examples of left-wing loony violence in recent British society. But do enlighten me, something 'amusing' would be nice.
off the top of my head, the left wing thugs who invaded the bbc hq before the racist griffin's appearance on question time. violence both inside and out. i'm sure you recall the organised mass violence at g8 summts and the like.
now, at no time have i laughed at racist or homophobic murder. i have however mocked the pointlessness of left wing politics, they are out of touch with the decent and free thinking majority hence no-one votes for it. in fact they are so out of touch the get less votes than barmy right. that i my good man is pretty out of touch and irrelevant.
the only positive the far left and far right have is that they shout the loudest, but that does make them right and i do not believe in loud noises
enjoy this link. hitchens tearing left wing parody of himself, galloway, a new one.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6804714963382152969#
Oh per-leez. The protesters who invaded the BBC studios are comparable with the racists who burn down shops, set fire to homes, kick gay men to death and promote the kind of thinking that ends in Fascism??? You REALLY think theyre the same?? Get a grip, you are sounding like a racist apologist, actually.
'Organised mass violence'??? You get all your views from the Daily Mail or what?? The police never start any of that do they?? Laying into peaceful crowds commiting civil disobedience?? Ask that chap who they beat to death in London because he happened to be walking past, because people like you will believe he was engaged in 'organised mass violence' if thats what the Police spokesman says. What utter garbage you are talking. You seem to have a view of yourself as very sensible and moderate, but perhaps a bit of that self-reflection social workers are meant to engage in wouldnt go amiss.
Galloway? Who brought that idiot into it??
Deek: Oh per-leez. The protesters who invaded the BBC studios are comparable with the racists who burn down shops, set fire to homes, kick gay men to death and promote the kind of thinking that ends in Fascism??? You REALLY think theyre the same?? Get a grip, you are sounding like a racist apologist, actually. 'Organised mass violence'??? You get all your views from the Daily Mail or what?? The police never start any of that do they?? Laying into peaceful crowds commiting civil disobedience?? Ask that chap who they beat to death in London because he happened to be walking past, because people like you will believe he was engaged in 'organised mass violence' if thats what the Police spokesman says. What utter garbage you are talking. You seem to have a view of yourself as very sensible and moderate, but perhaps a bit of that self-reflection social workers are meant to engage in wouldnt go amiss. Galloway? Who brought that idiot into it??
oooooooooooooo perrrrrrrleeeeeeze.
stop with the racist apologist line, simply not true. this is a tactic of the loony left, if your not with us your against us,and if your against the far left you must be part of the far right therefore you must be some kind of far right loony. a shallow and opaque mindset. this kind of crap is why the far left are no longer voteable.
the daily mail???? again a pathetic point of view.
peaceful crowds??did you watch the live footage of the g8 protests in gleaneagkes? are you suggesting the police were to blame?
just because the llon balls on the far right carry out acts of extreme violence does not mean that loony left do not carry out acts of violence and oraganised mass violence.
you sir, are an apologist for the far left. a far left that is out of touch with reality, unelectable and thankfully pretty much ignored.
What a load of rubbish. I am accusing you of being an apologist for racists because of what you have said, not because you arent left wing. You might want to re-read what I said and see if you get it the second time round. I'll spell it out for you: what I said was that your equating protesters outside the BBC with people who carry out ACTUAL acts of violence against minority groups is a complete distortion which serves to minimize the actions of the latter. A common tactic of those with a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. I notice you cant cite these acts of left wing violence you allege exist, and if you manage to find me one, i'd be surprised if it balances against, say, a nailbomb in a gay bar in London.
In terms of the far left, if you are talking about Galloway again, then I have absolutely no truck with him and his kind. If, however, by far left you mean I dont agree that capitalism has been the panacea that many people tacitly accept it has been (by dint of the fact they dont get out and protest about it) then guilty as charged.
But then again, the kind of lazy apathy that gets health and public services accepting pay freezes while bankers coin in billions of pounds, is the same kind of lazy apathy that doesnt challenge racism and homophobia, and leads to the BNP having Members of Parliament. The kind of lazy apathy you have embodied on this thread, in fact.
Deek: What a load of rubbish. I am accusing you of being an apologist for racists because of what you have said, not because you arent left wing. You might want to re-read what I said and see if you get it the second time round. I'll spell it out for you: what I said was that your equating protesters outside the BBC with people who carry out ACTUAL acts of violence against minority groups is a complete distortion which serves to minimize the actions of the latter. A common tactic of those with a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. I notice you cant cite these acts of left wing violence you allege exist, and if you manage to find me one, i'd be surprised if it balances against, say, a nailbomb in a gay bar in London. In terms of the far left, if you are talking about Galloway again, then I have absolutely no truck with him and his kind. If, however, by far left you mean I dont agree that capitalism has been the panacea that many people tacitly accept it has been (by dint of the fact they dont get out and protest about it) then guilty as charged. But then again, the kind of lazy apathy that gets health and public services accepting pay freezes while bankers coin in billions of pounds, is the same kind of lazy apathy that doesnt challenge racism and homophobia, and leads to the BNP having Members of Parliament. The kind of lazy apathy you have embodied on this thread, in fact.
actually i do have a vested interest in the status quo, i believe in moderate and tolerant and considerate party politics. thats why i vote for labour/conservative/libdem. now i would prefer that far left and far right extremist parties did not exist and their few supporters came to their senses but i believe in the democratic process and peoples right to free speech. i shake my head in dismay when i listen to the bigotted views of the far left and far right but i'll defend their right to say it and defend the right of the half-wit voting for them.
left-wing vilence? AGAIN - the g8 summit. live on telly for days on end.bbc hq a couple of weeks ago - 4 cops assaulted. plenty more where that came from.
i'm starting to resent you linking me to the far right because i slag off the far left.
Your defence of free speech earlier amounted to suggesting I should move to Cuba?? How very moderate and constructive. Is that your response to anyone who raises any complaint about any aspect of society?? And if you want examples of how the political class has failed to be moderate and tolerant over the last 40 years, how long have you got??
And as I suggested, you cant find a balance for right wing violence. 4 coppers got assaulted? (And im sure they have never brutalised anyone). But the point is that as I said, that in no way equates to fascists blowing up pubs. Well, not in my world anyway.
I have to keep repeating myself with you; im not linking you to the far right, im linking you to the lazy apathetic majority who allow the BNP to flourish by not challenging racism and homophobia. Which I have to admit I dont find particularly admirable, but at least its not the far right, eh?
when did i say that the far left or far right should not be challended?
of course they should be challenged and it is very easy to outdebate a far right or far left loony.
of course far right violence is more extreme than left wing violence (in this country anyway) but that in no way makes the far lefts views any less stupid, pointless and unvoteable.
god forbid the day the bnp or one of many left wing fundamentalism parties get some real power.
one good thing about the bnp is that they have opened up debate and i suspect many previous non-voters are now voting. the more people taking part in our democratic process is a good thing.
titchmagoo: when did i say that the far left or far right should not be challended? of course they should be challenged and it is very easy to outdebate a far right or far left loony. one good thing about the bnp is that they have opened up debate and i suspect many previous non-voters are now voting. the more people taking part in our democratic process is a good thing.
Im not just repeating this thread over and over for your benefit, that would be far too tedious. Re-read what you have posted.
Well you dont seem to be doing a very good job of it.
You arent even correct about that. The most recent Scottish by-election, Glasgow North East, just over a week ago, had a record lowest turn-out for a Scottish by-election. At which the BNP came fourth, with well over twice as many votes as your 'centre-right' Lib Dems that the 'majority' -you allege- favours. Anyway, enough. You arent saying anything of any substance and youre doing a terrible job of representing your views if you ARE as conservative as you say.
a record low turn out and the far right loonies still walloped the far left loonies, thats how out of touch witht normal people the left are, even mad righties can beat them.
i think you'll find i'm saying plenty of substance and based in fact, you think it's not of substance because it does not fit your leftist and out of touch viewpoint.
as i said, it's not terribly difficult to outdebate a loony far leftie or mad far rightie.
Yeah, youve certainly told me. Whatever.
Deek: Yeah, youve certainly told me. Whatever.
aye, i have. with your flipflopping around, wild accusations and tabloid arguments, yeh, you've been told.
again, it's not difficult to outwit the dimwits from the far left and far right.
Yep, youve done yourself -and the BNP- proud. Your carefully crafted, consistent and reasoned arguments will have me voting for them next time, as a protest against those loonies on the left, who simplistically think it would just be nicer to get along with people from other cultures and with other lifestyles. Well done you for showing me the error of my ways! ;-)
Now I really am off.