Why does this idea of penalising people who can't/won't find work keep coming back? I disagree with the idea but no-one seems to be coming up with any other solutions to the problem of whole generations of people in particular areas on long-term unemployment benefit. Many have valid reasons but many are also simply lazy. I'd be interested to hear about practical examples where people on long-term benefits have been encouraged back to work.

Caroline Flint only recently left as job as welfare reform minister so perhaps she forgot which post she was in?

Seriously though, Joe's right, we do need an alternative blueprint for welfare reform, one that neither follows the two main parties in their current "who's toughest" contest, nor simply leaves people to rot on unemployment or incapacity benefit over the long-term.

Obviously, basic skills training, access to affordable child care and tackling the benefits trap through a higher minimum wage and continued investment int tax credits are part of the solution.

But what about the issue of people's attitudes to working, which seems to be at the heart of the compulsion agenda? How on earth do we shift these without waving the stick?

 

 

 

I think a lot of it is about helping people to access jobs that they actually feel are worthwhile. It's easy to say that people are lazy and not motivated enough but if all that was on offer to me was putting pins into plugs I don't think I would be up for working either. Unfortunately there are lots of deadly dull jobs out there which need to be filled and I'm not sure how we get around this. I know some people who work in the city whose large salaries are actually partly in recognition of the fact that, as well as very stressful, their jobs are pretty dull. Maybe boredom recoginition money could be included in some of these more menial positions - thus making them more attractive.

Doesn't the welfare benefits system need to be reformed in order to harmanise with services which get people into jobs and help them to stay there? At the moment people who get work after being on benefits are faced with incomprehensible paperwork, obstructive officialdom and the prospect of less income, at least for a time. Worse, people with physical disabilities or mental health issues, whose conditions may be cyclical, face potential disaster if they get a job and then have a time when their condition worsens.

 I have yet to find a politician who will even begin to recognise these aspects of "back to work", let alone do anything about them.

Caroline Flint came into her post waving a big stick and pandering to the Daily Mail. As Mike McNabb pointed out in his excellent Community Care blog at the time, there is one part of the country where local housing associations have been helping benefits claimants back into work - in Yorkshire and Humberside where Flint's constituency is based. Go to http://www.communitycare.co.uk/blogs/social-work-blog/2008/02/caroline-flints-housing-plans.html

  There's been a lot of talk again recently about getting people off long-term benefits and into work. The Times has a story today about new "back to work" teams, which will contain occupational therapists and others, which will "steer" people back to work. Will that work? I wonder what the answer is?

I find that Caroline Flint may have a point. We do need to do something to stop this misuse of public funds. I have no doubt that we all are aware of service users that claim these benefits and we know that they probably should be at work. I am also aware that their are genuine cases too. The point being that work is a positive part of people's emotional wellbeing and promotes their social network. Lets be honest we visit homes that have cars outside, plasma screens and service users that wear designer clothes. It irritates me that their children don't have even clean bedlinen to sleep on. A major shake up is required to prevent fraudulent claims whether we all like this or not, maybe then we can have money to spend on schools and the NHS or is this all just a pipe dream.  

If only politicians weren't involved, with their desire to look "tougher than them", it might be possible to find a way forward with this which offers practical solutions without further disadvantaging people who are already at the bottom of the pile. But politicains are involved and I fear we shall get ranting, rhetoric, "crack-downs", initiatives.............. and very little change!

I think we have to accept that some people are just bone idle but clever enough to play the system. I don't know how you deal with this problem without getting tough and threatening to remove people's benefits

 

I find that one of the reasons why people get away with stealing form the state is that we are willing to accept that it does happen. The problem is that the money they steal is taken from hard working idviduals like ourselves. I d ofeel that not enough investigations into fraud take place and have been told that they need hard facts about a person working whilst claiming which is not always possible. The other part of this is when we are talkng about cut backs and soaring borrowing by the government, surely if they stopped this fraudulent behaviour we would have more money to spend on education, housing, hospitals, care for the elderly. 

Trouble is we are already at the point where it costs as much or more to catch the benefit fraudsters than is lost through their activities. From a moral and legal viewpoint we may want to use yet more resources to this end, but from a financial perspective its best to stop while you're winning. Unfortunately, the anti-fraud industry has grown and grown - it always sounds good for politicians to say they are "getting tough on cheats", when actually they are spending yet more of the taxes we pay, and getting diminishing returns for it.

The money would get a far better return on investment if it were directed towards tax evaders, but they don't arouse the same Daily Mail angst as "Council tenants with two cars".

Surfer, you have beaten me to it. I was about to post a link that highlights the £40bn bill for tax evasion and avoidance. But, as you say, benefits "cheats" are seen as bone idle and stealing from the state while the money-bags who send their dosh abroad or who hide it by employing spouses and children in their companies are seen as purveyors of creative accountancy. Here's the link, anyway http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/mar/13/taxandspending.economy?gusrc=rss&feed=uknews

So in reality Ms Flint is talking a load of tosh and is again being part of the reactive government system instead of the proactive  approach which is required to sort this mess out. On a lighter note and talking of tax when are they going to sort out the working tax credit. I claimed it as I was entitled to but I ended up paying them money back as they had, according to them overpaid me. Now I am in the boat that not only have the government ripped us all off regarding our pay rises but I am scared to claim tax credit as I know they will calculate it wrong and I will pay them instead of the other way round. Maybe I should resign and claim benefits i might be better off.  

It wasn't really benefit fraudsters I was talking about - more the people who are just too lazy to take a job