Hi,
Scenario:
If you are a registered Social Worker or Student Social Worker and in a nightclub where a service user is. You know they go there regularly and you will probably see them, what should you do??
I am asking due to this being an issue with a member of our team at the moment. I am a manager and I would make the decision not to go, or leave if I saw the person.
The answer I got from GSCC is if registered with the GSCC you are a Social Worker or Student SW 24/7 and therefore you should try to ensure you are not putting yourself in this situation, however she did say it was a very fine line.
I would be grateful to hear your opinions on this as I am struggling what to do with this situation, I want to make the right decision.
Regards
Julie G
I'm a student, almost qualified now. My university has told us throughout the course that we are representing the profession 24/7 and therefore need to be careful about our conduct no matter where we are or when. We were advised that if we know a service user goes to a particular pub or club, then it may be wise to choose a different venue- if we didn't and got drunk for example, it may lessen our personal credibility with the service user, not to mention that of the agency and profession and could be used against us.
Personally, I wouldn't particularly want to be drinking or socialising in the same venue as my service users anyway- I want my work and social life to remain separate. I guess though that unless there is the suggestion of improper conduct, or an inappropriate relationship with this service user, your member of staff is not actually doing anything wrong- it may be bad judgement, but may not actually be able to be classed as misconduct.
I am in agreement that there is a fine line the situation may differ in a small town such as where i live, there is every possibility that if myself and my husband go socialising in town that i may see a service user who i have been in contact with on my placement. This type of situation due to certain factors in unavoidable i would most probably try to avoid a direct conversation and would possibly just smile and walk by them unless the service user tried to engage me in conversation. If that happened i would very quickly and appropriately disuade them from getting into a discussion in those circumstances and suggest we speak at a more appropriate time.
I am sure everyone has had to 'brush' a person off without being rude, after all we are all human beings regardless of our title. We have also been told by Uni that we must behave appropriately 24/7 as a student social worker, and so we should be able to manage this type of situation as and when it may arise.
Not unless there are clear defined rules from the GSCC that state you can not be in the same room in a nightclub/pub situation...then i would suggest going elsewhere if you can.
This is one of my beefs with the social work profession which I cannot imagine applies to any other profession. If you live in a small or medium town there may be 2 to 3 pubs or clubs you can attend. Would a Physiotherapist be asked to stay away from a pub because a few of his/her patients go there?
Liquid in Luton can hold a few thousand people at once. Are you saying if a service user goes there that a social worker should not?
The first point is I have a problem with this term Service User. They are normal people who may have issues with their children (court order etc) or may simply be having a hard time due to other matters. Many of you may be drinking with 'Service Users' unaware as you will never know who has needed help for mental stress at some stage etc. This whole discussion is giving me pause of whether I want to stay in social work to be honest.
A club/ pub is a public place and if you start down this line then Social Workers would have no life. Life is already tough as it is.
Thanks for all your replies, they have been really useful..
Hey there, I remember this issue cropping up during a team meeting at my old job. My manager at the time was actually an ex service user and as a result was able to see this from both sides. He did state that he felt that stipulating that staff members should leave a pub/club etc if there was a service user there was inappropriate and it added to the stigma that a person involved with services may already be experiencing, in effect he felt that it widened the divide between service users and staff. Secondly he quite rightly stated that if we are registered with the GSCC/SSSC etc then we should be acting in an appropriate manner at all times anyway and shouldn't have anything to hide as it were. Whilst I mostly agree with my old manager's views I did recognise that he struggled with professional boundaries sometimes. I personally think it depends on the individual social worker and the individual service user, I think it would be difficult to have a 'blanket' rule about this. Good luck with however you decide to proceed, you should let us know the outcome.
Thanks
Gillian
This is really interesting..........however, it kind of relates to a train of thought that I had whilst studying. I am aware that the magical rules of conduct bestowed on social workers from the powers that be, are often very difficult to live up to, 'all the time', as we are human and I would imagine have interests outside of work where contact with people is a regular occurance. Considering theses issues and extending this discussion, I am begining to think that we are expempt from 'a right to life' ,
Seriously though, what happens if for example, we split witrh our partner or are single and looking for a new relationship, not a one night stand...but a genuine developing relationship..........are we able to get the pottential date / person vetted by the police or perhaps the good person vetting bureau.....so we can unearth pottential issues before commiting or falling in love? Imagine, your pottential o/h having significant forensic history.....
Anyhoo, back on topic, whatever happened to common sense and reason. The last time I checked, I was able to think for myself....besides, being in a club where we might bump into a service user is, for me, not the real issue. As professionals, being able to make grounded, sensible decisions and assess the risk to our person is pertinent to good judgement and awareness, especially in a setting where alcohol is available. Additionally, what would we do if it was not in a clubbing environment but a restaurant or on a train, would we be expected to depart the carriage or leave mid-point through our main meal..... Whats more maybe the service user might leave as they would not want to frequent with Social Workers????
Cheers all...
As a student I find all this quite interesting. I know that the GSCC are used to scare us a lot and I can see that this wont end. I agree with comments regarding common sense. I really dont think this would need the GSCC to be involved, or for the employer to get involved... that is unless there are further details that you are not sharing that could suggest it was more inappropriate than we think.
But lets not all shout 'poor conduct' as to me it is inevitable that many social workers will see clients in their own time... whether that be in town, on the train or when 'letting our hair down'. Maybe just a friendly chat might do the trick, just to inform the worker of how it could impact on their role and how potentially it could cross a few professional boundaries.
However, from what you have said, I would be inclined to say that this worker has done nothing wrong and it would be unfair to involve the GSCC.
Good luck.
Aron123: This is one of my beefs with the social work profession which I cannot imagine applies to any other profession. If you live in a small or medium town there may be 2 to 3 pubs or clubs you can attend. Would a Physiotherapist be asked to stay away from a pub because a few of his/her patients go there?
Generally, the relationship with a physio is different from the relationship with a social worker. It's a matter of common sense. Bumping into service users whether in the supermarket or in a club is not an issue in itself anyway. It's a matter of what happens subsequently - namely not necessarily engaging in contact other than perfunctionary greetings if approached.
There is an large dose of common sense to be meted out as well as an appreciation that not all social workers do the same thing nor have the same kinds of relationships. A social worker working in child protection who is in the same pub as a mother whose children have been removed is in a different situation from a social worker who has been putting together a comprehensive rehabilitation plan for an adult coming out of hospital. Professional boundaries and confidentiality always need to be maintained but 'service user' is by NO means a derogatory term as is assumed by this poster as people use services for many many reasons.
One of the daughters of a service user I worked with owned the pub at the bottom of my street. We sometimes used to bump into each other. All very civil (and distant) but I did steer away from that pub in social situations - because it would have been awkward for both of us. I knew things about her family that she would not have brought up in a general social conversation and it isn't fair to her to put her in that situation of trying to make small talk with me or about me when we have otherwise had very extensive conversations about her parents' mental health.
Generally though, it's about common sense. I wouldn't regularly go somewhere if I thought someone I worked with went (and to be honest, that would equally go for colleagues I don't want to bump into out of work!) - because when I go out, I want to detach from my work mindset.
A few years ago, when I was a child protection social worker, I was having my hair done at the local hairdressing college by a student apprentice. She was friendly and asked me what my work was and I told her. She then told me about why her child used to be on the CP register and how things were different for her now she left her boyfriend.
I felt a bit uncomfortable when she was cutting my hair, but luckily she had had a good experience of social workers who had helped her to make better choices in her life, In future I decided not to be so forthcoming about my proffession!
SW 24/7, some case load.
Clubbing what's that? Oh I feel so old!!
I've met service users who want to tell me everything that's happened to them when I last saw them and usually when the money is running out on the car park.
I stopped by the side of the road to answer my phone the other day and a hitch hiker thought I was picking him up so I did and got his whole life story in ten minutes. Which included the children he hadn't seen for years etc,
I then had to ring my other half to say that besides him being a bit smelly that I was still alive
One good turn deserves another as they say and mine was within ten mins when I went into a car park and a woman gave me her ticket with an hour left on it which was all I needed.
Oh dear we worry about the GSCC but haven't i heard that they might be disappearing into thin air why worry about them when the biggies like MI5 tap some of us
As some say we are all people just with different experiences of life.
My son, the natural but never to be social worker is like me and hears the life stories all of the time and wherever he goes. He listens briefly and they leave him happily
Perhaps people who still frequent night clubs should be true to helping rather than condemning their service users or am I being too harsh?
It's hard I know ...but you have to try.....go on
I'm not sure what the GSCC meant when they said ' ensure you are not putting yourself in this situation'. What situation? I have worked in rural and urban areas and certainly in the former it was difficult to avoid people who were using the service when out shopping or in the pub. While occasionally they wanted to stop me and talk about their case while I rummaged through the carrots I never had any difficulty in avoiding people, or they me, when out in a social situation. For the most part people were polite and I can only recall one situation when I was verbally abused while looking through a clothes rail in a local shop.
I do find it somewhat concerning that we all think we are such upright examples of humanity. Many social workers I have known do things in their private lives that they go on to frown at when confronted by the same behaviour in a service user. We should be aware of the potential for hypocracy in ourselves and in others. While I am not suggesting that we all go and let it all hang out I do think we should stop adopting the high moral ground. We can all behave ourselves in public but so do many service users. A chance meeting in a pub or club? You can either ignore each other or leave. It very much depends on the situation.
I don't understand the role of the GSCC in this or why you felt the need to contact them. I'm sure you could resolve this in discussion with the worker.
Thanks for all your responces, this issue has now been resolved and everyone concerned are happy...
Cheers..Julie G..:)
I'm an OT. I used to work in a mental health team, mainly in a day hospital where patients were living their lives in the community, not in hospital 24/7. I was in my 20s, I had a social life. There were many occasions when I was in a pub or a club, drunk and dancing, and patients were there too. Drunk and dancing is normal behaviour for a nightclub and that wasn't a problem. Starting a fight, or stripping, or having sex on the dancefloor is another matter. Attempting to snog a service user would be a problem. Betraying their confidentiality by shouting "oi nutter" would be a problem. Going out, having a normal fun night out is not a problem.
personally think that getting drunk - which is what 90% of regular drinkers - which is a hell of a lot of us - do on a fairly regular basis is something that would create rapport. Im not talking about getting drunk with service users intentionally of course but a bit of common ground halps people to see you you are not this top down patriarch - a wolf in sheeps clothing that is so often the view of people who are in need of social work.
I used to talk about whether id got drunk and freely admitted to parents that i supported with that id done it that previouis weekend - its common practice in many professions - I was in education at the time and ive seen dr's and nurses do it - the7y have course havent got this awful burden of the gscc codes of conduct and a profession that adopts a holier than thou attitude far too readily- why o why did the social work profession ever agree to this draconian regulation of our lives 24/7!
having said that - when i worked at the school I deliberately no longer went out in my town (I WOULD see parents out and they often talked to me about their children which frankly used to ruin my relaxation lol)
my univesirty actually advised us to not live in the city you worked in- what that means for the future of community social work i have no real idea!
its a really difficult one - i can see why the person in question does not want their liberty impinged and really should be up to them - tho i think they are taking their lives into their own hands! does the original person in question actually realise the risks of doin what they are doing?
have to say i agree - it certainly shouldnt be enforced upon us - this regulation of our freedom is a disgrace and indeed i also am reconsidering my position
interestingly if u got done for being drunk - and there does not have to be any evidence its just on the policemans judgement - u would be struck off - incredibly draconian
but it is common practice in education (surely a similar relationship) to engage with students and parents if one meets them in town (and they want to speak of course)
it is where i would say the best rapport building is done as once you are out of the formal setting people are freer to talk and more relaxed
the more restrictive and defensive sociazl work becomes the less able it will be to help people as they actually need
have been advised by a social work manager to never tell people what you did for a living as it avoided very difficult conversation....
i somewhat naively disregarded this advice as the idea of denying who you are seems very problematic to me! however i saw the change in people when i informed them - it really amazing is how many people have had poor social work experience! Though even people who I had worked with 10 years ago and was good friends with physically backed off when i told them my carerr of choice
its one of the reasons that i wish there was more solidarity between social workers when clearly the first recourse for many is to back bite and disempower their colleagues!
sorry about the post there - they were supposed to contain quotes and were responses to posters
romeo2001: being drunk - and there does not have to be any evidence its just on the policemans judgement - u would be struck off - incredibly draconian
being drunk - and there does not have to be any evidence its just on the policemans judgement - u would be struck off - incredibly draconian
What's your evidence for that statement?
Aron123: This is one of my beefs with the social work profession which I cannot imagine applies to any other profession. If you live in a small or medium town there may be 2 to 3 pubs or clubs you can attend. Would a Physiotherapist be asked to stay away from a pub because a few of his/her patients go there? Liquid in Luton can hold a few thousand people at once. Are you saying if a service user goes there that a social worker should not? A club/ pub is a public place and if you start down this line then Social Workers would have no life. Life is already tough as it is.
I agree with your first point, being a social worker is my profession not my life, you will always bump into people you work with wherever. Being a parent is a role I have and in my view, that role is more important than being a Social Worker. Should my employer and the GSCC demand that I adhere to social work values as laid down, every moment of my waking life then my answer would be something along the lines of "get stuffed". Because I am a social worker, it does not mean that I am OWNED by anyone and have to adhere to a set of standards that I might not always 100% agree with.
Drinking at liquid in Luton, well what can I say.................
At the end of the day, anyone receiving a service from a social worker, be that enforcement, statutory, support or whatever, is still an equal human being deserving of the same dignity and respect that should be afforded anyone. All it takes if you should meet a person you work with when "off duty", is for one to be polite, not dismissive, treat the person like an equal human and then carry on with your personal business.
The people I work with may not be my friends, but neither are a lot of colleagues my friends, but if I can afford my colleagues the time of day to chat about how rubbish Liverpool FC are this year, or how screwed we are with the economy, then surely if I don't allow such conversations when outside work then that would seem somewhat hypocritical.
romeo2001: have been advised by a social work manager to never tell people what you did for a living as it avoided very difficult conversation.... i somewhat naively disregarded this advice as the idea of denying who you are seems very problematic to me! however i saw the change in people when i informed them - it really amazing is how many people have had poor social work experience! Though even people who I had worked with 10 years ago and was good friends with physically backed off when i told them my carerr of choice its one of the reasons that i wish there was more solidarity between social workers when clearly the first recourse for many is to back bite and disempower their colleagues!
Hi romeo2001, I find that really sad, Social work should be something we are proud of. Stand up for social work, tell others what you do, be positive. Think of of the really good stuff that social worker do, support families in need, support people with mental ill health toward being self empowered, support people with learning disabilities to live as independently as they can, supporting the elderly to live with some dignity, rescuing children and vulnerable adults from horrendous abuse. What is there not to be proud of, yes the system is crap and needs to massively improve, but just look around at the hundreds of thousands of social care staff who are dedicated, caring and making a difference to peoples lives every day.
Don't get sucked in by the naysayers (the Mail, the Sun etc), they have their own axes to grind, the bad press, horror stories etc. There was a thread on here some time ago where people described some of their stories of work/interventions etc they were proud of, why not have a look back and be inspired.
Bit by bit, social workers are beginning to take back social work, but we can only make a positive difference if we tell people why we do what we do and the real positive difference we make in peoples lives.
Frankly, I think your manager was very wrong.
Aron123: This is one of my beefs with the social work profession which I cannot imagine applies to any other profession. If you live in a small or medium town there may be 2 to 3 pubs or clubs you can attend. Would a Physiotherapist be asked to stay away from a pub because a few of his/her patients go there? Liquid in Luton can hold a few thousand people at once. Are you saying if a service user goes there that a social worker should not? The first point is I have a problem with this term Service User. They are normal people who may have issues with their children (court order etc) or may simply be having a hard time due to other matters. Many of you may be drinking with 'Service Users' unaware as you will never know who has needed help for mental stress at some stage etc. This whole discussion is giving me pause of whether I want to stay in social work to be honest. A club/ pub is a public place and if you start down this line then Social Workers would have no life. Life is already tough as it is.
this does not just apply to s/w's. ask any gp, nurse, ot. exactly the same (non) dilema.
no way will i not being going drinking somewhere incase i'm seen by a client.no siree.
cb: Generally, the relationship with a physio is different from the relationship with a social worker.
Generally, the relationship with a physio is different from the relationship with a social worker.
That's true. Some physios, for example, might regularly have their hands on their patient's naked flesh, and possibly inside their orifices if they're doing work on pelvic floor problems, for examples.
I absolutely agree with the rest of your post, but I had to pick up on this bit. Sometimes there is a sense on this forum that some people believe social workers are the only ones doing in-depth, or sensitive, or lengthy or very personal work with people, and that the relationships other professionals have with their service users are somehow lesser than the ones social workers have with their service users. This part of your post came across as that, but it's not the only one, it's just a convenient example. I'd like everyone to appreciate that social workers are not the only ones doing in-depth, lengthy, sensitive, sometimes intimate, challenging, personal work with people.
I see service users in Town just doing their shopping or going about their business, I just say hello, I can't see why you would not acknowledge somone, my GP regularly walks through my field hand in hand with her husband and the dog and she always gives me a wave. I can understand the awkward feeling in child protection but I'm in adult services, we have our fair share of awkward moments with service users and their families, but even the ones who think I'm making the wrong decisions I have seen on the streets and they were civil.
I would not want a service user to see me drunk and if I saw a service user out on the tiles I would probably not hit the dance floor!
Kirst: That's true. Some physios, for example, might regularly have their hands on their patient's naked flesh, and possibly inside their orifices if they're doing work on pelvic floor problems, for examples. I absolutely agree with the rest of your post, but I had to pick up on this bit. Sometimes there is a sense on this forum that some people believe social workers are the only ones doing in-depth, or sensitive, or lengthy or very personal work with people, and that the relationships other professionals have with their service users are somehow lesser than the ones social workers have with their service users. This part of your post came across as that, but it's not the only one, it's just a convenient example. I'd like everyone to appreciate that social workers are not the only ones doing in-depth, lengthy, sensitive, sometimes intimate, challenging, personal work with people.
I don't dispute that but perhaps you were reading too much into my comment. I work in a multi-disciplinary team with nurses, OTs, psychologists, psychiatrists. I love my team and don't believe for a second that social workers are have any 'hallowed' status and if you read some of my other posts you'll realise that I've oft maintained this position.
I suppose I don't know enough about the details of physiotherapy but of course I understand there is physical contact. I suppose I made an assumption that it would be the level of physical contact that might be expected of a masseur whereas in the context of someone having to go through intimate details of their lives, relationships etc, it might make it different.
But I accept my assumption about physiotherapists was clearly in error and did not by any means intend to imply that social workers 'are the only ones doing in-depth, lengthy, sensitive etc etc'.
Indeed, I think some of the ways that people seem so precious about social work just implies a lack of confidence in our own professional status.
I just see myself as a public servant, I provide a service - some people have postive experiences and some not. I am no better and no worse than 'service users' (I really don't like that term). I am happy to go out to wherever I want to, whoever is there. There have been times I have met people whose children I have been involved in removing, or people who I have detained under the Mental Health Act and on those occasions I would consider leaving to avoid a possible scene - a bit like I would with plenty of other people who have nothing to do with social services.
If you don't want an answer then don't ask the question
If you live in the same town, chances are you may bump into service users. Would you change your shopping habits and shop in a different town, if there were only one supermarket, just to avoid bumping into people.
The issue is not so much being in the same vicinity, but more the issue of professional distance. To bump into service users is one thing, to fraternise and have a drink with them is another. We can assume that they might be equally embarrassed as to seing their social worker there.
Having worked for Social Services on a patch where I lived, my son attending local schools, like my clients, many of whom I had come across when doing voluntary work berfore qualifying and later through my involvement with local neighbourhood groups as part of my work, neither I nor my bosses could see any problem with it.
I got the impression that people had decided that despite me working as a social worker I was an okay person. This in turn made me probably more effective in my work as people knew me, they new my boundaries and never crossed them. I also knew and respected that they did not want to be reminded that I was their social worker.
I think if you behave with integrity then you won't have a problem. Please do not forget, we do social work, but we are not social work.
Agree with Bine and others.
If I am out and within the laws of the land then whats the problem?
There is no way I am not living my life because of the GSCC and if they think I am a social worker 24/7, I am not. Its a job which ends when I leave work.
More than happy to say hi to someone who was or is on my caseload but I let them say hi to me first. If they want to push into my life outside of work, I will simply ask them not to as I am not at work.
Its about boundaries and work life balance and should not be a dilemma. I have no intention in celebrating social work in my own very valuable time thanks.
tricky: Agree with Bine and others. If I am out and within the laws of the land then whats the problem? There is no way I am not living my life because of the GSCC and if they think I am a social worker 24/7, I am not. Its a job which ends when I leave work. More than happy to say hi to someone who was or is on my caseload but I let them say hi to me first. If they want to push into my life outside of work, I will simply ask them not to as I am not at work. Its about boundaries and work life balance and should not be a dilemma. I have no intention in celebrating social work in my own very valuable time thanks.
arent we actually supposed to be social wrokers 24/7 tho? not saying i agree with it - far from it
Hello,
This is an interesting point of discussion that highlights the divide between the private v. public within the Social Work profession. I remember this being a very thoroughly discussed issued in my Master's. As background, my MSW was attained in Canada and I have worked as a Social Worker in Canada, USA and UK. I am currently practicing in a small isolated community of 900 people. From my own and my various colleagues practice experiences over the years, looking back, this dilemma is fairly muted within Canada/USA. Canadian MSW education and training highly focusses upon the professional-client relationship, clinically and managing your professional self in public contexts while in a private role.
The one proviso that seems to come to the forefront is that when in the public sphere the client has a right to confidentiality, as such the Social Worker is bound to ensure that any professional relationship is not publicly announced, spoken or alluded to during any time when the professional Social Worker and client share a public space. Only if the client initiates any form of communication/acknowledgement of knowingness between the two, is it accepted that the Social Worker could acknowledge the client in the public sphere. And it is the Social Worker's responsibility to ensure that there is no discussion of a professional nature and if necessary to respectfully bring the conversation to and end and create physical space between the two of them. Establishing this boundary is usually done within the first few meetings with the client(s) once the Social Worker assumes case responsibility or becomes actively involved with clients. As such, both the client and Social Worker know what the boundaries are ahead of a random meeting in the community - that the Social Worker will not acknowledge the client unless the client initiates, and the Social Worker will only match the client's level of engagement, only to a point that it remains non identifying of the professional relationship and professionally respectful.
In some cases I have also known of colleagues that have reported chance meetings or shared public spaces with their Supervisors/Managers. Yet, these have been rare.
Regards.
S.
I live and work in a Local Authority in London. We went for a team lunch (in another part of London) and one of the parents my colleague was working with walked in. Needless to say we carried on with our lunch and they sat elsewhere in the restaurant.
Going to Notting Hill Carnival on Monday, with my kids, I bumped into a young girl I work with who was also on her way there. What am I supposed to do? Not go to the Carnival in case she sees me with a can of lager in my hand? We went and I didn't see her there, had a great day out and it gave us something to talk about when I next saw her (and helped as she is a drinker and I could talk to her about responsible drinking).
You can't not have a life just because you are a social worker. If that's the case, they need to pay me a lot more then they do to stay at home all the time. It's about being sensible and not engaging with them other then being polite but brief. I never behave in a way that would bring my reputation into disrepute whether service users are there or not.
I live and work in a small community; in fact it's an island. The problems others have mentioned are magnified many times over; service users date your daughter, are down at the beach and it is a nightmare getting a panel together where no-one is connected to the people being discussed.
One problem for me is that I am a bit of a weekend biker; during the week I avoid wearing such things as t-shirts with scary skellingtons on them, but I am to be seen wearing such things at the weekend. I don't want service users to think I have a pact with the devil or that they are being visited by some sort of Hells Angel - however, I also think it is my right to dress as I please off-duty.
Oh, and on the subject of identifying yourself as a social worker,back in the UK I used to have a colleague who worked for Parking Services -he had to be very careful not to wear his i.d outside the office!