I meet a lot of students in my day-to-day practice and I have to say that the intelligence and awareness of Social Work students is ever-decreasing.
Out of curiosity, I was wondering if there is a reason for this?
Are more places being made available? Is the profession attracting a lower quality of applicant? Is the country 'dumbing down' in general?
Bit of a generalisation. Students are a varied bunch, many will make excellent social workers. Sadly I do see some that I wonder how on earth they got on the course, but they're in a minority......... although there shouldn't be any like that - Universities should filter candidates better. Should say I am based in an organisation that gets several students on placement each year.
You enter a web forum, heavily used by social work students, and your very first post is to start a thread asking why they're thicker than previous students? You should change your name from Shark to Troll.
A lower quality of applicant? I have a 2:1 degree in English Literature from a top ten university, gained AAB at A-level and am currently on the Masters programme so i would suggest your comment is widely generalized. Not to mention mildly offensive.
I think that's a bit of an unfair generalisation. I trained as a social worker after many years in social services as a coordinator for adults with disabilities, before that I was a registered nurse. From a student perspectitve, albeit a mature one, I found that some practice assessors were more commited to student development than others. I had a fantastic assessor in one placement who ensured the range of work I undertook I met NOS' and values and made me think about my practice. At the other end of the spectrum I had a PA on a different placement who showed no interest in my student role and refused to have students come on shadow visits. He was very incomfortable about students (regardless of previous experience or otherwise) undertaking any assessments or reports. The upshot was that it was hard to meet the NOS' - I was able to gather enough work from other team members to complete for my portfolio. I think that social work practitioners need to bear in mind that different students bring different experiences with them and perhaps too much is expected from learners in some settings. My experience from my placement was that I felt understimulated because I spent most of my time doing the type of support work I had been doing in my previous roles.
Please Mr Shark do give us the evidence for your statements about students - is it factual or anecdotal? How have you assessed the decline you observe?
Shark, maybe it's you that is getting better...could be it's all just relative.
Shark: I meet a lot of students in my day-to-day practice and I have to say that the intelligence and awareness of Social Work students is ever-decreasing. Out of curiosity, I was wondering if there is a reason for this? Are more places being made available? Is the profession attracting a lower quality of applicant? Is the country 'dumbing down' in general?
I agree with Selks, yes they probably are a minority but if this forum is anything to go by, I am staggered by some of the questions and abilities of written communication, displayed by some, on here. (And it's not just the odd one who does not have English as a first language.)
When are we going to stop handing out warm fuzzies, just to make us feel good about ourselves?
Shirack: I agree with Selks, yes they probably are a minority but if this forum is anything to go by, I am staggered by some of the questions and abilities of written communication, displayed by some, on here. (And it's not just the odd one who does not have English as a first language.)
And you reckon it's mostly the students who are bringing the forum standards down? (From the dizzying heights of ... where?)
Shirack: When are we going to stop handing out warm fuzzies, just to make us feel good about ourselves?
Well, we mustn't upset the students- or pretend we know better.....the students are the most important forum members and we are here to help them. (I'm sure I read that in the forum rules) Here you go students, warm fuzzies all round. Can I write your essays for you?
No, hang on a minute, it's a bit like with teenagers isn't it? If you want to know something, ask a teenager whilst they still know everything......not being personal, just generalising.
A bit of meanness makes me feel so much better than giving out the warm fuzzies.
It wouldn't, by any chance, be to do with bursaries would it?
'Shirack' dares to question the use of English!!!
He says 'Yes there is' in answer to 3 questions - a singular when it should be a plural.
He starts a parenthesis with (And..@ instead of :and...)
He puts in commas where they ought not to be.
People in glass houses springs to mind.
copperbird: Shirack: I agree with Selks, yes they probably are a minority but if this forum is anything to go by, I am staggered by some of the questions and abilities of written communication, displayed by some, on here. (And it's not just the odd one who does not have English as a first language.) And you reckon it's mostly the students who are bringing the forum standards down? (From the dizzying heights of ... where?)
When have you ever heard of a college with space, running with it because of reluctance to take an unsuitable candidate.
I guess there was always a bit of this, because of financial viability but percentages have increased in favour of the space fillers and we now reap the wind.
Rather rude and offensive...Perhaps they are nervous? Perhaps you are just bored of meeting these students?Everyone has to start from somewhere. Give them a chance.
indialilly89: A lower quality of applicant? I have a 2:1 degree in English Literature from a top ten university, gained AAB at A-level and am currently on the Masters programme so i would suggest your comment is widely generalized. Not to mention mildly offensive.
'That's nice'....
However, educational attainment is not about standards. People who are passionate about teaching have the same frustrations about the performance led culture that is dictated by gov't; where students are coached in passing exams to the detriment of developing a thinking brain.
I wrote all my essays myself......no one had to tell me how to do that or give me pointers. If someone had offered me a free pass with an excellent portfolio and dissertation, I would not have taken it as I like to do things my way. No one had to tell me that, I just instinctively knew what my standards were.
It is by struggling with things that we learn isn't it?
There is also an educational theory that is based on pig farming;
"The more you keep measuring the pig, the less you are feeding it".
I agree with Shark and Shirack but I don't think it's all down to money, though that has a lot to do with universities putting 'bums on seats' (though that will surely change) I've been involved with social work education over 30 years from the old CQSW to the present; I've been an external examiner and recently a practice educator. I'm not looking back sentimentally, but I think there has been a dumbing down - and that includes the curriculum. My sense is that students in many universities and colleges are just not being taught properly (eg too much 'self directed learning - well its cheaper isn't it) especially when it comes to the more academic subjects such as social policy, psychology, and human growth and development. Also I wonder if enough emphasis is given to 'standards in public life' and the importance of professional practice. And I believe that the pernicious ideology of political correctness still dominates the curriculum when it should be long past it's sell by date. I've known courses run modules on international social work, when the students are not taught, and know nothing about, the history and development of social work in the UK. So I suspect that on many courses, students are being let down and certainly not getting value for money. Unfortunately, my sense is that students who are fortunate enough to attend a degree course at one of the prestigious Russell group of universities, will get a much better deal than those who attend one of the 'new' universities. But that goes for HE generally. I'd recommend all prospective social work students to read the Sunday Times guide to HE- its annual publication ranks universities across a whole range of criteria, including student satisfaction surveys. This is valuable information.
You make a good case for a UK agreed basis of what should be taught and to what levels. I agree that Human Growth and Development needs greater prominence and am much attracted to how we might define what are those 'standards in public life' as even many MP's seem to struggle significantly to meet them!!!
My view only; but I think putting Universities into ranks creates nothing more than intellectual snobbery.
Shark i think you've forgotten how dumb you and the rest of us were at the beginning of our careers.
I'm more worried about workers who show contempt for service users especially in CP. If you can't imagine ever being in their position with some tough breaks and a rotten family or no family at all I believe you've no right to be in the the job.
Oh those good old days when students were intellectual giants and social work tutors the emblem of excellence. As for that political correctness nonsense, how dare we sully social work values with any regard to differences? Maybe I have forgotten the excellence of my 1 year post grad in 1980 but I seem to remember in my rose tinted memories that my practice supervisor saying what a useless bunch of wasters we as students were and how it was all a lot better in the 1970’s. Nice to know that the ‘profession’ remains consistent in its prejudices. I am truly awakened to the reality now that qualified stands for excellence and student is another definition of incompetence. Such perfection in some of my peers. Some students are rubbish and some are motivated to the point of making qualified workers look the lazy coasting time wasters they undoubtedly are.
. miserableiam: I am truly awakened to the reality now that qualified stands for excellence and student is another definition of incompetence. Such perfection in some of my peers. Some students are rubbish and some are motivated to the point of making qualified workers look the lazy coasting time wasters they undoubtedly are.
miserableiam: I am truly awakened to the reality now that qualified stands for excellence and student is another definition of incompetence. Such perfection in some of my peers. Some students are rubbish and some are motivated to the point of making qualified workers look the lazy coasting time wasters they undoubtedly are.
Shirack agrees with me on something
* faints *
Miserableiam - I take it your post was directed at me. If you read carefully what I said, you will see that I do not trash students - I would never dream of doing so - and I am not looking back with rose tinted spectacles. I am on the side of students in the sense that in my recent experience, students at qualifying and post qualifying levels are often not getting good teaching, and are not being adequately prepared for practice. And I stand by what I said about political correctness: in his article 'Social Work and Civil Society: the mixed legacy of anti-oppressive practice' John Pierson suggests that social work 'can no longer afford political correctness' and that it contributes to social work's 'shrinking legitimacy with its public' . I agree and I think it's time to move on.
retired:Pierson suggests that social work 'can no longer afford political correctness' and that it contributes to social work's 'shrinking legitimacy with its public' . I agree and I think it's time to move on.
The majority of the general public may well think that because of their own dubious values and institutionalised isms....what do we do, leave our value base behind in order to please the general public?
On the MA Social work 2012 thread I spelt souls wrongly as soles. My posting also annoyed some contributers to the extent of almost venom, which does not auger well for the future.
Had the offended picked up my mistake they would have beaten me with it but, no.
Other point I would like to make is the trend of studentism, as if they are all the same.
Most worrying trend in students, if I may generalise, is their preference to be patronised rather than treated as equals. This leads to everyone else being wrong and often spurious complaints.
This attitude should be left behind with mummy and daddy.
The truth often hurts and shows with petulant responses.
I
'studentism'???
Students are not equals in all respects - but dear old 'Shirack' knows that and just continues to be deliberately annoying. Students are not qualified so professionally are 'appretices.' They are NOT equal but they are DIFFERENT.
Rupert M: 'studentism'??? Students are not equals in all respects - but dear old 'Shirack' knows that and just continues to be deliberately annoying. Students are not qualified so professionally are 'appretices.' They are NOT equal but they are DIFFERENT.
Or as you put on another thread 'infront'!!!
retired you wrote, “....but I think there has been a dumbing down - and that includes the curriculum. “ What is the point I missed or the intention I misconstrued?
Redana I don't think it's intellectual snobbery - the fact is that HE institutions vary enormously in quality. If you were paying for your degree course, and wanted value for money, would you not go for a university which has a low student drop-out rate; which has a high staff/student ratio; where student satisfaction is high; where many tutors have or are working towards, Doctorates, and are undertaking practice based research; and which have rigorous selection criteria? Those are just a few of the markers which distinguish a good university from a poor one.
I suspect that many LAs and employing agencies aren't interested in securing good quality education for their staff - they want the cheapest, nearest, and quickest course. And if they sit on university Practice Assessment Panels and Exam Boards (of which I have attended many) they don't know what to look for or what questions to ask, to really find out what's going on. They are too easily 're-assured'.
A couple of years ago I was impressed with the integrity of a practice educator whose employer was about to enter into an agreement with the local university (a former polytechnic), which would result in him only being allowed to practice teach students from this particular course. He took the view that the standard of sw education at this particular institution was so low, he refused to have anything to do with it. So the employing agency , and students, lost an excellent practice educator, because he was not allowed to work with other degree course providers. I don't think that was snobbery.
Rupert M: Or as you put on another thread 'infront'!!! Adv. 1. in front - at or in the front; "I see the lights of a town ahead"; "the road ahead is foggy"; "staring straight ahead"; "we couldn't see over the heads of the people in front"; "with the cross of Jesus marching on before" ahead, before Yes - 'pots and kettles' indeed - totally agree with you!!!
We all make mistakes but you don't seem to understand the hypocrisy of your comments. (By agreeing with me I take that as an acceptance of my point, which must be a first.)
Thank you.
I wasn't going to contribute to this post but just want 'retired' to know that I am completely agreeing.
Retired; I'm just wary of hierarchies and league tables.
I have also sat on exam boards and sadly, some of it is the students as opposed to the course...how else do you explain the fact that (based on what I saw) some of the portfolios were really impressive, most easily good enough and several others woefully inadequate?
Some students do make you wonder how they got through the selection process......even at a 'good' university.
Does anyone think the creation of access courses has maybe changed the 'standard' of university students from all fields not just social work?
Yummy: Does anyone think the creation of access courses has maybe changed the 'standard' of university students from all fields not just social work?
No. I think the creation of Access courses (which I never did as before my time) was a great thing. I think before then higher education was far too elitist. They used to say that uni students were the top 3% of country's brightest - I never swallowed that line and always believed that other circumstances were factors on a persons opportunities and academic ability was probably just a small factor. I don't believe that having a degree is a real measure of intellegence and that most people are probably capable of attaining one if they are driven that way.
I think Access courses are great because they remove the formality (and possibily the mistique) of the A level for people who for whatever reason have had to return to formal education. I've known a few people who have completed Access courses and OU courses and are well educated.
It may be that access courses could be usefully extended, I know I've heard academics comment that they feel the gap between where the access course ends and the degree begins may be too high.
I would say social workers now more than ever are far less 'dumbed down'... The UK has vastly changed over the years I would argue social workers now are a lot more culturally aware - 21st century social workers are dealing with a lot more inexperienced and new social problems than past social workers - with far less resources to deal with these problems - Cut some slack at least! I am in my 1st year of social work I can advocate on behalf of my class we are far from dumb.
However, judging people for how they write on a internet forum - now that is dumb and secondly given in your post you ask "Are more places being made available" maybe you should become more 'intelligent' and 'aware' and pick up a paper or a journal and read into the current future of social work.