How do I explain to children that the LA are going to court to apply for an ICO

I haven't done this before and I want to get it right.  I have children who are accommodated under S20 however things have got to the stage where we are now going a step further and going to court to seek an ICO.  I have to explain to the children about this process, any tips would be gratefully received

 

It really depends on how old the children are as this would inform their level of understanding of the processes etc? 

 

 

Of course it does depend on the age of the children... I have a standard format story/ narrative for children in care proceedings that I customise depending on the children and their story. I also have some story books - like a book called "maybe days" which helps children understand that sometimes we don't have answer for "how long" just yet.... It's a bit American with mom instead of mum etc but puts a message across well. Another good one is called "a terrible thing happened" and I have found it helps with encouraging children to talk about things that happened to them or around them. Never found a specific book for care proceedings but writing a narrative like in life story work really helps, I use clip art and print it off for them to keep looking at or reading with their carers.... Since the children are already in care, I am thinking you are likely to have already given them some understanding or explanation at the time they went into placement so explaining about court etc should just be expanding on that? Depending on their age I would question whether you have to expand on that explanation at this point? If they are settled and it's clear that they have a good enough explanation for now, that may well be enough... Until they have more questions, but do get a common narrative together for everyone to use.

It is a large sibling group, the children are a variety of ages.  Supersonic, thanks for that, do you know where i can get any of those books from?

I managed to muddle through telling them as best I could, not ideal.  Yes they already had some understanding given that they are already in care, but its an important time for them, because if parents can't show us that they can parent appropriately in the next few months, then these children will not be returning home, the odds are that they will be split up, they are deemed to be too old for adoption so face the rest of their childhood in care. 

Discuss with the Childrens' Guardian who will be involved in Proceedings.

Hey jelly tot, the books are available on amazon - around £5-£8 ish but you will use them time again. Rupert ..... Are you taking the Micky?! Ask the guardian? She'll be lucky if they even have one yet let alone one that's met the kids or gives a toss. I used to aspire to be a guardian but these days it's not what it used to be ... I'm sticking to the frontline and the real work with children..

Wasn't there something published on CommunityCare website about this, not too long ago? Or am I dreaming that?

A Childrens' Guardian HAS to be appointed and become involved. If they do not fulfil their role then a complaint needs to be made. Don't let CAFCASS off the hook.

Hi Selks,

No, you're not dreaming, we published this article recently on how to explain your child protection role to children. http://www.communitycare.co.uk/Articles/26/09/2011/117499/How-do-I-explain-my-child-protection-role-to-a-child.htm

If you're a Community Care Inform subscriber you can also access this guide to direct work with children.

Hope that helps

Ruth

Thanks Ruth!

thanks for the link

i've seen the books on amazon and will purchase a couple (although these ought to be supplied as standard)

guardian?? whats one of them?? seriously the guardian turned up at court, didn't introduce himself, hadn't met the chldren, didn't speak to me, so totally agree with supersonic what an utter waste of space, and in my past experience they meet the chilld once, usually a couple of days before the final hearing, then act as if they are the be all and end all of people to children bahh!!!

I needed to explain to the children before we went to court so the guardian was no more than useless!

Any Guardian behaving as you describe should be reported to CAFCASS and the Children's solicitor needs to be involved throughout the process.

Children's Rights are not always safeguarded by the Local Authority and they deserve and are entitled to the best possible Representation in their own right.

Rupert, sadly I have noticed a deterioration in the performance and professionalism of guardians in the past couple of years, at times to a level which I never thought was possible!!! They are not isolated examples and i understand that at times they limit their input under instructions from their managers, so a complaint would not make a difference. I was bemused to hear of a system of duty guardians, to see that Guardians do not attend key hearings and at times their solicitors have to improvise because they do not have instructions. They have been told long ago by their managers that they are not to attend LAC reviews anymore and in many cases it is true that they only see the children once or twice in the whole set of proceedings.  I have met many guardians that complained about the way in which they are asked to do their job, but I would not be surprised is others would not be that bothered about the current state of facts.

Regarding explaining to children about Court, I do agree that it depends a lot on their age and understanding, particularly around abstract concepts like law and justice. Some younger children manage better if they can make a parallel with fairy tales, although you can never know when that backfires (i burned badly once because i did not realise that an abuser used a similar terminology to mine before the child was placed and intimidated the child into silence, so inadvertedly i made that person sound even more powerful). i found that kids are more interested to know about the things that are directly relevant to them, like where they will live, do mummy and daddy love them and want to have them back, when this will happen etc. I have not used books before, but used simple sentences, simple terms like "me, and aunt, and mum, and dad, got together, and there was a judge, too, (the child knew what a judge is) and x was there - do you remember him? (The guardian) and we discussed about you, and mummy said this, daddy said that, and we told the judge that you are very happy here and that you wanted the judge to know this" etc. For younger children I might use props like doll houses and get them involved in the discussion.

Rupert as much as I think we all understand your views and what you are saying about complaining, it’s like putting a plaster over a gaping wound - it’s does not do any good as RP explained - they are TOLD to work like this. It endemic and is getting worse every week and believe me i have complained to the management and they fall on deaf ears.

The way it usually goes is, that they turn up at court (if we are lucky) usually it’s a "duty" guardian and all they have on them is a bare few details about the children. They read our statement, chronology etc. and then will ride roughshod with their opinion having never met the children or knowing limited information about the family.

It seems their initial decision making is based on other similar cases and the usual phrases are "in my experience this what should happen" so they treat all families as the same - e.g., new born baby with teenage mother - must be a mother and baby placement, regardless the mother suffers a violent psychosis and does not feel safe with the child and even with monitoring is clearly a risk.... or.... 5 children in a family have all been adopted,  last child was was given a placement order literally a few weeks ago and nothing at all has changed.... lets give them 5 days a week contact for 3 hours a day, because thats the "gold standard" never mind the impact that this level of contact has on the child who has to spend 2 hours of her day in a car seat ...

It drives me mad that the social workers that actually know the family are just ignored and the all-knowing guardian's opinion is taken as gospel.... it used to be that they deserved this level of respect but now days you can be a guardian just three years post qualifying! I agree that children's rights are not always safeguarded by the LA - i always fight hard for what is right but of course we are at the mercy of managers who are being put upon by senior management who want to stay in budget, so we do need a system that is looking out solely for the child, but the system we have no longer works. It’s an absolute joke.

 I have a case that has been significantly delayed in proceedings because of the guardian AND children's solicitor being completely lax and an attitude that’s so laid back its horizontal - this case has been in proceedings since November last year and still no interim report, we have gone back for 3 directions hearings at my request as they had not done a thing they were supposed to like a letter of instruction for a global psych, and not even had an interim report! Just to finish it off, we now have to wait until after Xmas for a final hearing because the guardian is too busy... it’s unacceptable, i have complained, my managers complain, my senior manager has complained but nothing has happened, we just got a reply talking about pressures of work.....

sorry to rant on, but since i mainly do proceedings it’s an issue that really riles me.... and think 18 months ago, i thought that being a guardian would be the job that i wanted to end up with... you can stick your 40k, I get enough stick from the general public for being a social worker, i don’t think i could manage to thicken my skin enough to have other professionals constantly slating me as well!

Jelly tot - i agree these books should be available in the office at no cost - my whole resources box should not cost me as i need it to do my job! But hey, theres always Tesco and car boot sales for stocking it! 

 

I wonder how many guardians are on this post?

'Front line workers' are in an increasingly difficult situation and it's unlikely to become better any time soon. I've been in the job a long long time. Guardian's came about as the result of the Maria Colwell case, when a child was sent home by agreement between the local authority and the parents and she died. at the time none of us were as well clued up about Child Protection ( non accidental injury, as was) but there have been masses of stuff since then. I'm sure that I and my colleagues can analyse, and protect as well as any one. Have you noticed how as social workers we are required to state what our qualifications and experience are? when was the last time  you saw that on a guardian's report? I was told that they were instructed not to do this as it might raise awkward questions about those who are less qualified. 

I'd never take what they say at face value. They are a crutch for the court. And some ( not all by any means) are so arrogant. Mind you, over the past 30 years I've found that some social workers are like that too. The best guardians I've worked with have dealt with me as a respected colleague.  Then worst is often guys who've 'just gone across' and have an inflate view of their importance, and knowledge. Not getting any better - did you know they take on newly qualied workers and train them up to be guardians. Can you imagine it? May have been 'cutting edge at one time, but not any more. Courts aren't much better it might be better if they weren't appointed so often. I recall that the decision to appoint a guardian is at the discretion of the court, have I got that wrong?

 

Quantum:

I recall that the decision to appoint a guardian is at the discretion of the court, have I got that wrong?

 

Guardians are always appointed where there are childcare proceedings-but it can be slow.

Quality of guardians is haphazard, same as for sw's.

If l.a's complain to CAFCASS every time, there would be no time left to protect children.

Give the children details of independent orgs like Voice of the Child in Care, Coram Children's Legal Centre, to get friendly and child centred advice for themselves.

that link is about how to communicate with children, bit like teaching grandma to suck eggs How do i joint inform?

guardians get how much!!!! how can they justify getting paid that ludicrous salary?

are there any guardians on here? be interesting to hear their views

the few i have met, 3 to be precise, have all had their heads up their own backsides and talked to me like something the dog dragged in! think they need to get off their pedastal and get with reality!

Drives me mad too that the courts take their views as gospel when they've probably seen the child once! we as sw'ers are surely the experts, we know the family we know the children and surely we should be respected a bit more than we are

thinking about how pompous the guardian and the children's solicitor were towards me on this case i mention makes my blood boil, wish i'd have been confident enough to tell them how rude i thought they were turning up in a room of people and not even acknowledging me! It wont happen again thats for sure!

Hi Jelly_tot04,

The details on joining Inform are all at this link. http://www.ccinform.co.uk/home/default.aspx. It's a subscription-based service, but you can request a free trial and there are special deals for students.

Hope that helps

Ruth

 

Ruth, is there anywhere where it says how much a Ccinform subscription actually costs? I can't see that anywhere.

Hi Selks, I've asked my colleagues on CCInform for that information - I'll get back to you asap. Everyone I've spoken to says it's very good value for money though if that helps.

Ruth

Here you go Selks - details on how much Inform costs. 

Individual subscription rates for full access to Community Care Inform for 12 months:

Full-time students - £99 + VAT

Individual subscriber - £295 + VAT

Individual subscriber – discounted rate for UNISON and NAGALRO members: £173 + VAT

 

3 ways to pay:

1) Individual subscribers have the option to pay monthly by direct debit

2) Pay the full amount by cheque at the start of the subscription

3) Pay in two equal six-monthly instalments – first one at the beginning of the subscription and the second payment half way through

Call Kim Poupart on 0208 652 4848 to find out more or subscribe.

Ta. It's too pricey for me though. Perhaps making the info more available on the inform website might be an idea.

I have been a Guardian for 10 years with 20 years frontline CP before that. I hope I never behave in the ways described here however, it is part of my job to evaluate the LA actions and plans and that will mean criticism sometimes. Some social workers are fantastic but others are not and I will not let bad practice jeopardise children if I can help it. I also am acutely aware of the pressures social workers are under.

Our work loads are huge and I cannot do with 26 families what I used to be able to do with 12. I work very long hours and feel passionately about the children and try my upmost to get the best outcomes for them. I think you should complain to Cafcass if a guardian is not doing their job properly.

I like Dennis the Duckling and Dennis the Duckling and the Big Decisions for explaining this to younger children. Written by a guardian so the social work duck lacks a snappy nickname but the concepts are easy for younger children to understand. Amazon have a huge range of books under the family issues bit, also BAAF has some good publications and littleparachutes.com has a wide range of books for various issues.  For older children, I tend to develop my own book so that they can keep it and go back to it when ever they want. 

I agree with all of the comments re guardians...on one case I have worked with the children for nearly 3 years at one time on daily visits but my opinions...dismissed...which explains why we've been in proceedings 18 months!

I have to agree with thesw posts, allocated social workers are often working with the family for some time before it gets to court, we know the children and we know the parents, over and over again a duty guardian graces the court with their prescence for 5 mins, doesnt know the children etc etc and gives their "professional" opinion that the Judges or magistrates drool over...its a joke, what do the courts think we do day in day out......dont get me started on ISW Parenting Assessments, to be fair many of the ISW's say that they are only going to repeat exactly what the LA social worker has already said, is our professional opinion that tainted.....

Months of delay in fairly straight forward cases...why do they think we have made an application to the court...and I am a front line social worker who chooses to remain in a busy CP/Court team and I have 15 years expereince in childrens services.......pleeeeeaaase dont come to me with your bad attitude and holier than though presentation.......lol not that I feel strongly about this at all

I managed to muddle through telling them as best I could, not ideal. Yes they already had some understanding given that they are already in care, but its an important time for them, because if parents can't show us that they can parent appropriately in the next few months, then these children will not be returning home, the odds are that they will be split up, they are deemed to be too old for adoption so face the rest of their childhood in care.

dysfunction breeds dysfunction; separating a sibling group is setting every one up for problems including yourself, you will find that as the children get older they will gravitate towards each other and their parents making every ones life very difficult.

that situation can be easier to manage with the children remaining under S20. You are already acknowledging that permanacy can't be acheived: you will end up with resentment rather than partnership. 

Josie74:

I have been a Guardian for 10 years with 20 years frontline CP before that. I hope I never behave in the ways described here however, it is part of my job to evaluate the LA actions and plans and that will mean criticism sometimes. Some social workers are fantastic but others are not and I will not let bad practice jeopardise children if I can help it. I also am acutely aware of the pressures social workers are under.

Our work loads are huge and I cannot do with 26 families what I used to be able to do with 12. I work very long hours and feel passionately about the children and try my upmost to get the best outcomes for them. I think you should complain to Cafcass if a guardian is not doing their job properly.

Well said!!!

 

How do you find time to create your own books - I would love to but with case loads rising and work pressurse I have trouble managing the basics! Sad but true.

I agree that Denis the Duckling is a great book though, lack of time means I'll have to keep relying on what's already out there, even if it means I'm often out of pocket as agree children should have something to keep.....

I had Denis the Duckling and a series of small books (paid for by me) called Just Me - they related to children coming into care of all ages.  Never used any of them. Most of the kids I worked with had v short attention spans and it was entirely inappropriate, for various reasons.

Like Bulldog - I muddled through I told them grown ups were worried about them, I was there trying to keep them safe and we needed to make sure we looked after them and to try and help mummy and daddy look after them safely !!  And when we can't be sure of that then we have to try and keep them safe somewhere else etc etc.  Don't underestimate kids they know more than we give them credit for.

As an aside, a child I had to say goodbye to after moving him from home into (3 year intervention so knew the 5 kids well) a long term fc placement - "You made me safe".

Worst thing before I retired was a  (a new one) TM who appeared to be delighted to take part in removing children from home and told children they "were going on holiday".  Knew I couldn't be part of that crap anymore.  You can only fight so much. 

Oh *** I meant Voltaire - sorry Voltaire !!!

prolly not what people want to hear but if you substituted social worker for guardian on this thread then ive heard  every one of those  complaints made about social workers from every professional imaginable in childrens services - its same *** different job I'm afraid....