As this is close to where I live and is an issue I have experienced when working in Birmingham and other West Midlands Authorities in the past prior to retiring I feel that is worthy of far higher attention:
http://www.communitycare.co.uk/Articles/2010/11/25/115891/derby-abuse-case-could-be-tip-of-the-iceberg-expert-warns.htm
My own experience was that such vulnerable girls and young women were targetted / groomed by asian males especially - but not exclusively so and that the activities of some taxi drivers were quite unhealthy.
It is not always easy to engage the police but on-going persistence is needed and the proper formulation of Child Protection Plans which have the full cooperation of all agencies. This abuse has been tolerated for far too long and it is thanks to the local initiative from the voluntary sector and on a wider basis by Barnardos that awareness is slowly being raised.
Rupert M: As this is close to where I live and is an issue I have experienced when working in Birmingham and other West Midlands Authorities in the past prior to retiring I feel that is worthy of far higher attention: http://www.communitycare.co.uk/Articles/2010/11/25/115891/derby-abuse-case-could-be-tip-of-the-iceberg-expert-warns.htm My own experience was that such vulnerable girls and young women were targetted / groomed by asian males especially - but not exclusively so and that the activities of some taxi drivers were quite unhealthy. It is not always easy to engage the police but on-going persistence is needed and the proper formulation of Child Protection Plans which have the full cooperation of all agencies. This abuse has been tolerated for far too long and it is thanks to the local initiative from the voluntary sector and on a wider basis by Barnardos that awareness is slowly being raised.
Interestingly I took part in a training session last year aimed at dispelling the myths around BME and in the q+a session Asian men grooming white girls (especially those in care) was rasied as a problem and this was rubbished by the facilitators who denied all knowledge of it - I wonder what they would say now?
I do wonder whther the oppressive attitudes from many (not all) asian fathers have filtered through to this genration who havnt got their fathers cultures restraint on sexual matters - just from the Asian friends I have I know that they see white women as "practice" and not really marrying material or counting for much. This, it must be said, doesnt seem to put the women off!
Sorry, but can I get this right please? Are you saying that sexual abuse of teenage girls is more likely to be perpetrated by Asian men than men of other ethnic backgrounds? Please can you point me to the evidence for this?
Sorry. Am I getting this right? Are you telling me that you believe that Asian men are more likely to groom and sexually abuse teenage girsl than men of other ehtnic backgrounds? Please point me to the evidence for this.
Hi RupertM (see you didn't last long without CareSpace) and romeo2001. Have been rather disturbed to see how quickly debate about this case has lead to some rather extremist discussion within cyberspace. (A quick Google will reveal what I mean). I think we need to ask whether there is any research and evidence to suggest grooming by one particular ethnic group is a problem? Isn't there a risk that if we make sweeping generalisations about one ethnic group we make assumptions in practice, which could lead to professionals missing abuse.
Ruth Smith Editor at Community Care
Twitter: @ComCareRuth
Email: ruth.smith@rbi.co.uk
The issue specifically relates to Organised Abuse and does not say only asian males but from my own direct experience over many years it is most certainly a very real problem which pressures around political correctness / ethnic sensitivities have appeared to mitigate against the full extent of its prevalence.
Larger scale research would be most welcome.
I have also made the posting as Derby is very close to where I live.
http://www.standpointmag.com/features-december-10-gangs-girls-and-grooming-the-truth-julie-bindel-asian-gangs-pimps-rotherham
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1299844/How-schoolgirl-fell-clutches-gangs-forced-sex-slave.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-546809/Is-political-correctness-stopping-police-ending-misery-teenage-sex-slaves.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8157739/Asian-gang-prowled-streets-searching-for-rape-victims.html
Rupert just because you add " Not exclusively so" it in no way dilutes what, to me, is a racist point.
Romeo you do the same thing only you say "Not all"
( Whilst I am at it I don't think Martin Narey's should be seen as a guru on the subject either)
That should be Narey.
It is nothing to do with being a 'racist point' - it is a matter of fact that such Organised Abuse does takes place, it is a matter of fact that I have observed it over many years and it is a matter of fact that society and social work have a long record of ignoring / failing to accept many different types of child abuse - we are still in relatively early days and need to ensure that there is open and honest debate.
As stated I do feel that reserch is vital but awareness even more so - there was a high level of denial / lack of action in this case for a long time. 'romeo2001' makes a very considered point - the perceived standards of control and behaviour do change over time within certain ethnic communities - that has very much been my experience in working withn a Mirpuri community.
To hopefully minimise any further personal comments I will leave it at that for now.
I don't wish to argue but if you Google something like working for pimps, you will see no exclusivity from any ethnic group.
This sort of targeted highlighting only fuels social unrest ah la Daily Mail. There are evil people everywhere, they should not be categorised by race.
Rupert, if you must look for what they have in common; how about Penis.
Has anyone found any reference to the WHITE Camborne paedophile gang convicted today?
'Shirak' - I will be intentionally personal and say that you must be stupid if you think that reference to 'penis' is the common ground. Surely you know more about child sexual abuse than that - if not, and you are a social worker, then please apply for a place on a suitable Child Abuse training Course as soon as possible. You over-simplify and trivialise a major issue.
Also, there has been a Legal / Press embargo on the Camborne case until today - of course white males also carry out such abuse, I don't recollect anyone saying otherwise.
As you appear to need further explanation (and I can't reccomend any courses for that) I use the word Penis to illustrate one of the common factors in child abuse as you seem to be using Asian.You don't seem to get the simple point that the issue here is random highlighting.White males are not highlighted, Asian ones are. Sorry when I read your postings I can only cope by trivialising them but the point I make is not trivial .
The Serious Case Review at 3.13 raises the issue of ethnicity - the likes of 'Shirak' seem to be trying to stifle that debate.
I agree entirely with the SCR that further considerations / research, and ideally on a national level, are required.
http://www.derbyscb.org.uk/docs/BD09SCRExecutiveSummary.pdf
I must come back on this one. No-one has answered my question about whether there is any evidence to suggest Asian men are more likely to perpetrate organised child abuse. Nothing that I have seen since has suggested that there is any.
The suggestion in para 3.13 of the Derby SCR that ethnicity might be an issue, is one paragraph amongst a huge document. Of course it will be an issue - but one issue amongst a massive number of other issues. Why are we picking it out as the only important one? There are predators who prey on young vulnerable teenagers and sexually exploit them from every ethnic group - in his way, (I might not have chosen the same words as he did) Shirack was making the point that what they have in common is that they are all men - and in our misogynistic society there are men from every culture, religion and ethnicity who believe that they have the right to exploit women to meet their own perverted need for control. Vulnerable young women are easier to control.
Rupert: I am not tryingto stifle debate if Iwas I would not be doing this instead of watching the rugby.
As 3.13 says it has not been possible to draw any firm conclusion from the one review, I suggest you are at least jumping the gun.
If further consideration was given to this (Which I doubt) on a national basis, I would very much fear hidden agendas getting in the way of an objective conclusion.
So it is not, to coin a phrase, as black and white as you seem to suggest.
I see no value skirting or pussy-footing around the issue.
There is a perception, gained from the historic events in Keighley, in West Yorkshire, that cultural relativism (that is racism in some people's eyes) that the response to Organised Abuse is/has been reduced in breadth because of a fear that the subject will impact racial sensitivities.
And there is some evidence of that, typified by Anna Hall's documentary for Channel 4, the Edge of the City, in 2004, was canned by the Chief Constable, see http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2004/aug/09/channel4.otherparties because of the fear that the BNP would make political capital of it.
The snag is, the problem didn't go away in 2004, and if anything was effectively allowed to continue untouched, until in April 2008 a BBC North investigation of the same region found the problem even worse, but now involving plenty of males from other traditions other than Asian - see BBC News - Police in Child Sex ring enquiry.
And perhaps then, and only then, has the issue started being addressed.
The idea that the 'penis' is the problem is a simple facicious term, a left-over from 1980s child protection concepts? The real problem is young girls are being raped and abused by organized groups. It has been allowed to continue, virtually unchecked, to the point that it has spread beyond West Yorkshire; in this case to Derby.
Inside the last two years, some progress has been made. Greater Manchester Police managed to secure some convictions. Derby police too. There is still a problem in West Yorkshire. The primary problem in dealing with the issue is the Deniers - those desperate to deny there is any problem - despite the past investigations by individuals who couldn't easily be determined to be racists. Although some of the Deniers have a genuine fear, that the likes of the BNP will be encouraged by the problem - that stage has been and gone. The problem isn't some kind of urban myth; it is too well documented by film and journalists' reports.
It isn't sufficient to declare that the problem doesn't exist, and anyone who highlights it is obviously racist. The argument has moved on beyond that now, to how sufficient resources can be allocated to the problem so it can be stamped on rapidly. The teenage girls in Derby were doubly abused - by the gang and by those who should have aided in their protection.
The hope that the issue will just 'go away' isn't a valid response.
AAAAAgh. I wish people would stop referring to my Penis comment as being facetious when that is exactly what it was. It was used to point out another thing the perpetrators had in common as well as race. I could have said noses or belly buttons. I happened to say the first thing that came to mind after reading someones post, only the spelling was different. Do we all have be more caring and serious than thou? just to suit those that think we should be.
I think this is a real and relevant issue and we would be remiss if we didn't seek to engage with it, difficult as that may be.
I did a quick trawl of journals and I could not find any specific study/research that addresses the issue in whole or in part. The following literature reviews here and here, whilst extremely informative, also do not address the issue of the ethnicity of pimps and sex workers and the possible relations between the two.
However, outside of academia, this is an issue which others have sought to address in a fair and balanced way, most noticeably perhaps by Julie Bindel here and here.
As RachelL suggests above, there is also a danger in not engaging with the issue at all. It certainly doesn’t appear to be going away.
Shirack: AAAAAgh. I wish people would stop referring to my Penis comment as being facetious when that is exactly what it was. It was used to point out another thing the perpetrators had in common as well as race. I could have said noses or belly buttons. I happened to say the first thing that came to mind after reading someones post, only the spelling was different. Do we all have be more caring and serious than thou? just to suit those that think we should be.
From this day forward, it will forever be known as 'Shirack's penis comment'.
Ruth Smith: Hi RupertM (see you didn't last long without CareSpace) and romeo2001. Have been rather disturbed to see how quickly debate about this case has lead to some rather extremist discussion within cyberspace. (A quick Google will reveal what I mean). I think we need to ask whether there is any research and evidence to suggest grooming by one particular ethnic group is a problem? Isn't there a risk that if we make sweeping generalisations about one ethnic group we make assumptions in practice, which could lead to professionals missing abuse.
very true. slightly off topic but the point is still there, much jumping up and down due to 'sweeping generalisations' of asian men. compare and contrast when the scourge of society, the white middle class male is castigated.....................yes, the WHITE middle class male.
Here's an interesting piece by Yasmin Alibhai-Brown.
Just because there is no research doesn't mean something isn't a problem.
There can be a fear of being accused of being racist. and people can play on this. I was recently told I could not speak to women in a family without their male relatives present as it would be against their culture, which is frankly bollocks.
There are attitudes towards women which can lead to them being abused and these attitudes should be challenged in exactly the same way we would challenge any other unhealthy family dynamic.
You can get just as much bollocks from any posessive male, why pick on culture?
That skirts too short; you have too much makeup on, in fact why do you need to wear makeup at all? Happens in all cultures when dominance/ insecurity/ mistrust/ low self image comes in to play. Common factor = the multi coloured penis.
before mentioning any thing about child abuse, and talks some details about ethnic groups make sure their is an evidence, so that what were saying can't be misinterpret.
Shirack: You can get just as much bollocks from any posessive male, why pick on culture? That skirts too short; you have too much makeup on, in fact why do you need to wear makeup at all? Happens in all cultures when dominance/ insecurity/ mistrust/ low self image comes in to play. Common factor = the multi coloured penis.
i hope you'll back me up the next time the white middle class male is beung castigated.
titchmagoo: Shirack: You can get just as much bollocks from any posessive male, why pick on culture? That skirts too short; you have too much makeup on, in fact why do you need to wear makeup at all? Happens in all cultures when dominance/ insecurity/ mistrust/ low self image comes in to play. Common factor = the multi coloured penis. i hope you'll back me up the next time the white middle class male is beung castigated.
Cheers.
British Journal of Social Work (2006) 36, 1361–1377 Cultural Barriers to the Disclosure of Child Sexual Abuse in Asian Communities: Listening to What Women Say Philip Gilligan with Shamim Akhtar
Anyone notice the sad case of the 4 yr old run over by a hit and run driver. How was he identified?
An asylum seeker. This is Griffinesque. Even the announcers were judmental in their reporting inviting outrage. This covert stuff has to stop Mr Murdoch.
Sorry 12 yr old.
Because there are different cultural norms that play a part - its seen as acceptable and right that women are oppressed within Asian cultures - just as it was in British culture decades ago - whats scary is the lack of challenge from people who should really know better and the massive lack of protection that all women experience
No hierachy of oppression remeber!
Thats actually a very good point
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jan/07/grooming-racialising-crime-tradition
Interesting.
Yes I heard this on the news today.
It is interesting when people's religion is used to identify them - "muslim men" - as these men may not practice their faith in any way.
What is true i think is that there is culture (within all religions) which sees women as lower than men. mens needs/desires/wants come first. I have met fundamentalist Christians who genuinely believe this and praxctice it - all decisions being first approved by the man of the house. The way this dynamic plays out is different in each different faith (as far as I can see). It can then effect the ability of women to speak out and protect children.
I put a link in an earlier post to this but ...a survey of women in Derby asking about the impact if izzat
This is a subject where you tend to agree with whoever speaks last. Tory party have promised an urgent review; I hope they speak to a post Vietnam Thai person and ask them about sexual predators.
This is nothing new, what was Vanessa's relationship with Joe?
This whole thread should focus on the song not the singer.
According to Jack Straw the issue of young white women being targeted by men of Pakistani origin for sexual abuse is unacceptable and is a ‘specific’ problem that needs to be acknowledged and tackled although he also admits that the majority of sex offenders in the prison system are white males. Part of what Jack says is, as the Americans would say, a no brainer. Off course the sexual abuse of vulnerable young white women by men of Pakistani origin is unacceptable. Just as it would be unacceptable if the perpetrators were of native British or any other origins. But according to Jack the issue of men of Pakistani origin targeting white females is a 'specific problem'. So, what makes it more specific? One of the arguments that has been put forward is that testosterone fuelled men of Pakistani origin perceive white women to be easier than their own women and to be of low moral values. Apparently, they see the short skirts and low cut tops that are worn by white women as an invitation, something which a male of any other ethnic origin would obviously never ever do. Would it be more acceptable and less remarkable, I wonder, if the women in Derby had been sexually exploited by white males or if the men arrested in Derby had been targeting women of Pakistani origin? In my opinion the focus on men of Pakistani origin is neither here nor there. Sexual abuse is not acceptable whether the perpetrator shares the came cultural background as the victim or not.
As it has already been mentioned the sexual abuse of vulnerable young white females is part of a wider issue which various charities, such as Barnardos, have been struggling for years to raise. As it has also been mentioned, in a previous post, focusing on a particular ethnic group can lead to sexual abuse being missed when perpetrated by a different ethnic group and is in my opinion racist. It has also been argued that there were no suggestions of racism when the issue of forced marriages within the Pakistani community was raised. I think that this is a clever attempt by some people to hoodwink us into believing that their intentions in raising this issue are innocent and pure. There was plenty of research that showed that forced marriages were an issue of concern in the Pakistani community and Pakistani women were, themselves, quite vocal about this. Where is the evidence to support the assertions that have been made by Jack Straw and his supporters? Jack Straw further argues that his opinions have also been echoed by social workers, the police and others. I don’t support his opinion. He does not tell us how many social workers or police officers agree with him. An opinion poll by Community care about the opinion of social workers on this issue would be timely and welcome. Let me suggest the following as a question: is the targeting of vulnerable young white females for sexual exploitation by men of Pakistani origin a specific issue that needs addressing (yes or no?). There are no statistics or even estimates on the number of men of Pakistani origin that are targeting white women. Where is the evidence that the targeting of white women is endemic within the Pakistani community and deserves a ‘specific’ response? If Jack Straw is asking the Pakistani community to help it must mean that they agree that this is a problem within their community. Or do they?
as shirack rightly says whoever posts last you agree with
interestingly Mohammed Shafiq, chief executive of the Ramadhan Foundation on http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12140641
seems to say there is a problem with a section of Muslim men but then rather confusingly on the guardian report says there definitely isnt and all suggestions are racist
I think its a dilemma that sadly means people will put their heads in the sand and the oppression as described above will be allowed to continue until such time academics tell us we able to challenge it - then there will be much hand wringing and self flagellation amongst the profession - repeat to fade!